Talk:tuỵ đạo

(Notifying Fumiko Take, Mxn, Wyang, PhanAnh123): : Hi. I'm curious, why the spelling tụy đạo seems much more common than tuỵ đạo. Is the latter a recent standardisation? If it's obsolete, then it probably makes sense to make the older spelling as the main entry, which was more common in the past? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:09, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev They represent the two schools of thought on the Vietnamese diphthong orthography. The traditional school places the tone mark in the middle and writes it as tụy, whereas the new school uses tuỵ, supposedly based on actual phonetics. The famed Vietnamese lexicographer Hoàng Phê, as well as his Vietnamese Dictionary (Từ điển tiếng Việt), follow the latter. The Publishing House of Education of Vietnam (Nhà Xuất bản Giáo dục Việt Nam) I think also uses this style. We follow the latter and treat the former as alternative forms. However, in actual use it is often the case that the former is used more commonly. The Vietnamese Wikipedia has an article on this if you are interested: Quy tắc đặt dấu thanh trong chữ quốc ngữ, but there is not much discussion on the history though. Wyang (talk) 08:34, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Wyang: Great, thank you. I'll search for English resources on Vietnamese orthography. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:56, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Wyang, Atitarev Chiming in late here; just saw the ping. As an overseas Vietnamese person, my personal preference is for the traditional spellings – the reform has little traction in the U.S. – but others like Lo Ximiendo prefer the reformed spellings and have recently been moving content over to the reformed spelling. As far as I'm aware, there isn't an English Wiktionary policy preferring reformed diacritic placement (or the y→i reform for that matter) over traditional diacritic placement. I'm not sure if there needs to be a policy – other than avoiding edit wars, of course – since this wiki uses {{alternative spelling of}} templates. After all, the English Wiktionary gets by just fine with some Commonwealth English spellings as alternatives of American spellings and vice versa. For what it's worth, the Vietnamese Wiktionary doesn't have explicit an policy on the matter, but it does consistently use the traditional spelling and place redirects at the reformed spellings. Long ago, the Vietnamese Wikipedia held a poll on preferring one spelling over the other. It concluded with much discussion but no consensus, so nowadays both styles can be found there. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 05:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

@Mxn, Wyang: Thanks, Minh Nguyễn. I'l leave it to Vietnamese native speakers or advanced editors to decide, which one is preferred. I just wanted to be informed. I haven't seen any conflict around it. It's not uncommon to normalise spellings at Wiktionary based on spelling reforms, Unicode changes, etc. It can all be described at Wiktionary:About Vietnamese.

I wonder if you probably meant User:Fumiko Take, a native Vietnamese speaker, rather than Lo Ximiendo but I think she also prefers the new standard, not 100% sure. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

@Wyang Are you aware of any precedent for using a more specific template than {{alternative spelling of}} for alternative spellings? Alone, that template does discourage usage in a way, since "alternative" can be viewed as subordinate to a "primary" spelling. If there isn't, perhaps we should use {{lb}} to explain why these alternatives exist. For example, colour says where the spelling is common; for tụy đạo, could we say something like {{lb|vi|Overseas Vietnamese|or|informal|or|traditional}}? It's tricky because the reform is so recent compared to, say, English or French orthographical reforms, and not universally accepted. On the other hand, it is a mainstream orthography, much moreso than, say, Vietnamese2020. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 01:54, 25 July 2018 (UTC)