Talk:talumpati

Removing Existing Etymologies Proposed

@Ysrael214 Don't do that please. You can discuss where it came from, and propose it here, but don't remove someone else's edits without consulting them. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:45, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

My apologies. Will do for the next time. Ysrael214 (talk) 14:03, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: So for this one, is it your own theory, or was it from a published source? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser For this one, this is my theory based on the sound shifts from Malay to Tagalog, which is why I clarified "unknown and probably Malay." However, I looked at Malay dictionaries to see which words would make the most sense and close to the meaning "speech" of talumpati. Like, it can't be from terung because that means "talong." And the closest would be "terang pati," explaining the essence. See Malay terangkan to mean explain. Tagalog close equivalent would be "linaw", "ilinaw."

It might be wrong but that is much closer than assuming talumpati is Tagalog wording talung pati morphed to talumpati because of Tagalog morphology. Furthermore, talo and pati means differently in Tagalog. Ysrael214 (talk) 14:35, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael14: Actually, the Tagalog word "patì" means like "rebuttal" or "verbal response to an opponent". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:09, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael14: You can see it here: https://diksiyonaryo.ph/search/pati. Definition is "sagot, karaniwan sa pag-tatálong tulad sa balagtasan" or the more obsolete, ancient meaning is "matatag at matibay sa hangarin o salita". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:11, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael14: So basically, if we're gonna take the Tagalog components "talo" and "pati", it literally means a losing rebuttal to an opponent. So, from there, it's easy to imagine a semantic shift to the sense of "speech". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser

Since I found talompati in the Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala to mean the following:

"TALOMPATI. pp. abatirse, atreverse á decir ó hacer algo con sumision. Mag. Ante quien ó en que. An. causa. Ipag. Es término de poetas., Vide Bilin."

translated "swoon, dare to say or do something submissively."

Okay, talo+m+pati now seems more plausible.

You can remove my Malay hypothesis then. Thanks. However, it's still possible the "pati" part came from Malay that means essence but that's still just a possibility. Ysrael214 (talk) 16:05, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Obsolete Definitions

@Ysrael214 Where'd you get the obsolete definitions you added? I added the one that's found in Vocabulario translated from Spanish. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:16, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Diccionario Tagalog-Hispano

https://books.google.com.ph/books?redir_esc=y&id=jJ5PSQYsEdkC&q=talumpati#v=snippet&q=talumpati&f=false

The entry provided says so much a lot about "respect" (respeto) and courtesy (atento/antencion) that I think sumision doesn't mean submission in the the modern context but obedience. Ysrael214 (talk) 15:47, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Obedience can also be translated to "sumisión". Ysrael214 (talk) 15:48, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Also they're the same pronunciation talumpatì, according to Diccionario Tagalog-Hispano. I think the Vocabulario 1860 just didn't make it explicit as they sometimes forget marking. Or possibly it was pronounced that way but overtime got pronounced with a glottal stop. Ysrael214 (talk) 15:52, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Actually I think, it is actually pronounced with a glottal stop because the suffix indicated in Vocabulario 1860 is "an" not "han". What do you think? Ysrael214 (talk) 13:48, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: It makes sense. It seems like they're kinda not consistent with the diacritic markings on the words. Weird. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Sometimes, the diacritic provided is wrong too. I forgot which entry I just saw it in, but it gave "hin" but the word doesn't accommodate that. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:11, 10 October 2022 (UTC)