Talk:têm medu
@HansRompel Currently the etymology section uses templates implying the word is Papiamentu ("pap" being the first parameter in the {{der}} templates you used), which contradicts the language header; please clarify which it is. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 16:40, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Mnemosientje, corrected this. Thank you for your oplettendheid. HansRompel (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Memosientje, I see you have a lot of fun in linking the Dutch and Papiamento words. Go ahead! One question: what is the meaning of bor=1 when linking descendants and why is it that at "bril" Afrikaans is without and Papiamentu is with bor=1 ? HansRompel (talk) 18:24, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- @HansRompel The "bor" parameter in
{{desc}}corresponds to the{{bor}}template in the etymology section. That is to say, it indicates lexical borrowing. Afrikaans descendants of Dutch words don't get this parameter, as Dutch words in Afrikaans are considered to be inherited from the former, as Afrikaans directly developed out of Dutch. Papiamentu is not exactly a daughter language of Dutch however as far as I know (despite the very significant Dutch lexical influence), so Dutch words in Papiamentu are considered to be borrowed. See also the documentation at{{bor}},{{inh}}and{{der}}. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 22:48, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Mnemosientje Interesting. The linguists are not unanimously, but the newest investigations of Bart Jacobs show that Papiamentu is a Portuguese-based creole and descends from Cape Verdean creole. After 1650 the Dutch words came and Spanish relexification took place. These words replaced inherited Portuguese-based creole words. Nowadays 20% of the Papiamentu words are of Dutch origin. 80% of the words are Portuguese/Spanish based. Because of the great similarity between Spanish and Portuguese, of most words it cannot be said whether they are of Spanish or Portuguese-based origin. So, in your definition, Dutch-based words are indeed borrowed. Clearly Spanish words are also borrowed. Clearly Portuguese-based words are inherited. But for the words of which it is unsettled whether they are of Spanish or Portuguese-based origin, unfortunately it cannot be exactly said. That's a pity. HansRompel (talk) 09:59, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- @HansRompel Well, I have to admit I'm not an expert on these languages at all (besides being a native Dutch speaker), so my judgment isn't perfect, but yes it seems to me that Dutch words in Papiamentu would be considered loanwords by Wiktionary's rules. I might ask around with other editors sometime to make sure (if I do, I'll tag you in the discussion). — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:14, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
@Mnemosientje For you this must interesting. Decorated Radboud professor Nicoline Van Der Sijs and her team set up an "Uitleen woorden" database. A database of Dutch words and how they are used in other languages. A large source and for you probably also a great help. You can download the list "Nederlandse Woorden Wereldwijd" (in the Dutch language) for free at the site of the Koninklijke Nederlandse Academie voor Wetenschappen. https://pure.knaw.nl/portal/files/458170/Nww_compleet_archief.pdf HansRompel (talk) 10:06, 18 January 2019 (UTC)