Talk:střední Evropa

"střední Evropa" vs "Střední Evropa"

Isn't this supposed to be capitalized, like in Střední Evropa, when used as a proper noun, with a specific regional meaning, not as a "sum of parts" (i.e. the "central Europe") ? --Ivan Štambuk 19:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Not according to the native Czech speaker who created the article. Note that all Wikipedia pages must start with a capital letter, so the title of a Wikipedia page can't be used as a capitalization guide. Internal capitalization rules on Wikipedia aren't helpful either, I've found. --EncycloPetey 20:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, Czech orthography requires capitalization of a first word of proper nouns refering to place names. "střední Evropa" is central Europe (in a general sense, not worth of dictionary entry), "Střední Evropa" is Central Europe (in it's geopolitical meaning).

But, I guess we'll have to wait for Daniel to double check this =) --Ivan Štambuk 21:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I have created this article. Reference:, search for "jižní Evropa". Also, googling shows the spelling "střední Evropa" too, to be found on notable pages like www.radio.cz, but of course only in the middle of the sentence. Admittedly, the Czech Internet contains "Střední Evropa" in the middle of sentences too. Hope this is convincing enough. ;). --Daniel Polansky 13:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It should be capitalized to "Střední Evropa". To write "střední Evropa" is like to write "nová Anglie", both is correct but meaning is different. ---xfi- 21:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course it should, Daniel obviously misunderstood what the original issue is, as the even the link he provides cites:

Evropa, Polynésie, Balkán, Morava, Polabí, Středomoří, Královéhradecko, Haná, Spiš, Meklenbursko, Sever (severní oblasti země, severní státy USA apod.), Západ (hospodářsky vyspělé státy západní Evropy a Severní Ameriky), Orient (ale sever, západ - světové strany), Jižní Amerika, Střední Asie...

etc. In it's "proper noun" sense, it should be capitalized, like the other Czech translations on Northern Europe, Eastern Europe etc. I'll be bold and redirect the page. --Ivan Štambuk 17:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

You guys, do as you please. However, your bold step is unsourced, only based on argumentation and speculation, whereas my recommendation was sourced. This thing is not all that important to me, so let it be. --Daniel Polansky 12:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The source you cited, says: Střední Asie, as a proper noun. I don't see how could be any other way for Central Europe. As I already commented on your talk page, jižní in "jižní Evropa" is in the next sentence specifically exemplified in an attribute use, as a "sum of it's parts", i.e. not a proper noun. --Ivan Štambuk 19:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

One more source

The Ústav pro jazyk český akademie věd - The Czech Language Institute - explicitly states that "střední Evropa", "jižní Evropa", "severní Evropa", and "západní Evropa" are spelled with lowercase "střední", on the grounds that these are not official names of geographic regions. The same source has "Střední Asie". The source sees a difference between "střední Evropa" and "Střední Asie".

The analogy with "nová Anglie" is IMHO misleading. It rests on the fact that there is an official geographic region with the name Nová Anglie - New England. The issue is that there is no official geographic region Střední Evropa; any contrary statement should better be sourced. Another even if less important difference in that analogy is that whereas "střední" specifies location, "nový" specifies age or the state of restoration. --Daniel Polansky 08:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

But that would nullify the difference between the proper noun and common noun (SoP sense :) It's not the spelling itself that is the valid evidence - it's what is meant by the spelling. Your source says jižní Evropa (Afrika = jižní část Afriky..) - ie. spelling with lowercase means "southern part of", and that is not the translation of geopolitical term (deprecated template usage) Southern Europe ^_^ I would be really surprised if literary Czech would deviate on this matter from all the other Slavic (and other) languages, and also have any entries at all in Category:Czech proper nouns (apart from few notable exceptions - like English) that would begin with lower case. But, whatever ^_^ --Ivan Štambuk 18:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Google books

An interesting view is provided by google books:"střední evropa". In there, both "střední Evropa" and "Střední Evropa" occur in titles of Czech books. For instance:

• Kolísání klimatu ve střední Evropě, 1991
• T.G. Masaryk a Střední Evropa, 1994
• Edvard Beneš a střední Evropa, 1994
• Aktuální problémy demokratizace postkomunistických států střední Evropy, 1995
• Ekologie vegetace Střední Evropy, 1999
• Bretislav I: čechy a střední Evropa v prvé polovině XI. století, 1999
• Zapojení veřejnosti do regionálního rozvoje ve střední Evropě, 2004

My point is not to count the instances. I only want to show what I think is an inconsistence. I cannot imagine that the titles of the listed books refer to two different regions, one formed as a sum of parts, the other one official and thus deserving capital "S". --Dan Polansky 17:18, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Further considerations

I have to admit that the state of affairs with "střední Evropa" disturbs me. One one hand, the Czech sources that I have provided concur in that they explicitly contain the variant "střední Evropa", but fail to mention "Střední Evropa". They treat "západní Evropa", "východní Evropa", "jižní Evropa" and "severní Evropa" the same way.

But by looking at Western Europe, and its translations, I agree with Ivan Štambuk that the Czech translation is the only translation spelled in lowercase. The reasoning given in the Czech source, namely that "západní Evropa" is not an official geographic region, seems unconvincing to me, as I do not see how "Střední Asie" is more official, or how it manages to have better defined borders than "střední Evropa". I also concur with Ivan Štambuk that the variant "západní Evropa" does not deserve a dictionary entry per its spelling suggesting it is only a sum of part.

The sources that I have linked to are not scientific articles, although at least the second one seems to be official, from the Czech Language Institute. I am inclined to suggest that what the institute recommends can be in an important sense wrong; that is, that they prescribe something which on my norms, including the norm of consistency accross other languages, and the norm of consistent differentiation or non-differentiation of "střední Evropa" and "Střední Asie", they should not. There is still the possibility that I misunderstood what the source is saying, although if the source implies there is such a thing as "Střední Evropa", they are IMHO obliged to state so explicitly, to prevent misunderstanding. --Dan Polansky 11:34, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Is it a proper noun, then?

As explained above, “střední Evropa” is not capitalized because the whole phrase is not a name, only the second part (“Evropa”) is. But then, this means the phrase is not a proper noun, so it should not be marked (and categorized) as such. Moreover, the whole phrase is just a connection of “střední” + “Evropa”, with both words used in their general meaning. In that case, doesn’t this entry violate the criteria for inclusion? --Mormegil 20:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Its meaning makes it a proper noun. If it's in common use, I don't see why it would meet CFI less than similar phrases in other languages. If it's used in both capitalized and uncapitalized forms with the same meaning, why not accepting it? Lmaltier 21:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Lmaltier: it is a proper noun, as it denotes a particular region rather than a concept or a class of particular individuals. Whether it meets WT:CFI is unclear to me, but this question would have to be settled for all the terms denoting the region, including Central Europe and Europe centrale; the question is not specific to this particular entry. --Dan Polansky 12:42, 13 August 2009 (UTC)