Talk:pro-shipper
Add topicLatest comment: 6 months ago by WordyAndNerdy in topic wrong definition
Semi-protection?
[edit]Seems like this is a lightning rod for unconstructive edits. Might warrant semi-protection as a preventative measure. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 01:28, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
wrong definition
[edit]the definition for proshipping is wrong it actually means to believe you should not harass someone over a ship no matter how problematic. people putting incorrect meanings like this are the reason innocent people are harassed and accused of multiple things Cheesewheel66 (talk) 18:04, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- This entry currently has two senses. The first ("one who supports a specific ship or shipping in general") has been around since the 1990s. Older senses, as a general rule, are listed before newer ones. A bit of background: the term shipper originated in X-Files fandom. At the time, shipping itself was somewhat controversial in X-Files fandom. Many fans opposed the idea of a Mulder/Scully romance because they appreciated the show's depiction of a platonic friendship and were concerned that moving their relationship into romantic territory would spoil their dynamic.
- The second sense is more recent. I wouldn't say it's "wrong," per se. It's just that Wiktionary is bound by neutral point of view. The definition is an attempt to describe the pro-shipper viewpoint without framing it as either right or wrong. Many anti-shippers would contend that their opposition to ships they deem "problematic" is simply criticism of harmful content rather harassment or bullying. Pro-shippers, in contrast, often emphasize the distinction between fiction and reality, and hold that it's possible to support others' right to explore "problematic" content without personally endorsing it. Thus, the second sense has an and/or clause. A pro-shipper, according to the definition, is someone who "supports a ship or shipping deemed problematic (e.g., due to incest, age differences, abusive dynamics, etc.)", or someone who "believes in the freedom to create and consume fanworks with such elements." The second part is trying to say that pro-shippers believe people should be free to create/consume whatever fan content interests them without characterizing anti-shipper arguments as harassment.
- Writing definitions can be a tightrope walk. It can be difficult trying to balance clarity, accuracy, and neutrality. Feel free to offer suggestions on how the clarity of the second sense could be improved. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 07:22, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
- im talking about the second definition “A pro-shipper, according to the definition, is someone who "supports a ship or shipping deemed problematic (e.g., due to incest, age differences, abusive dynamics, etc.)” is wrong and is mixed up with the meaning of comshipping.proshippers have experienced lots of harassment online due to people seeing the wrong definition,as u can see in previous edits multiple people have tried to correct it but its just been changed back.if you would like more information on what proshipping actually is i would recommend checking out https://learnaboutproshipping.carrd.co/# (made by an actual proshipper) Cheesewheel66 (talk) 19:57, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
- There have also been a couple of users who modified the second definition to carry an explicit anti-shipping bias (one of whom went so far as to register the username "Proshippersucks"). Wiktionary isn't really the right venue to weigh the full nuances and history of the pro-shipper vs. anti-shipper debate. Wiktionary is a descriptive dictionary that documents words as they are used. To be included on Wiktionary, words must meet the criteria for inclusion. This means there must be at least three examples of the word being used ("citations") in acceptable sources over a period of at least a year. The citations for the second sense of pro-shipper show that the word can be used to refer to both 1.) shippers of contentious pairings, like Jaime/Cersei or Snape/Harry and 2) fans who take a "live-and-let-live" approach to shipping without necessarily supporting contentious pairings. This distinction – that pro-shippers don't necessarily personally support "problematic" ships – seems to be baked into the definition of the word as it is used in the second sense. Would you say that an anti-bullying stance is also baked into the meaning, i.e. that the definition should be modified to something like " […] and/or believes in the freedom to create and consume fanworks with such elements without facing harassment?" As for comshipping/comshipper, this seems like a new word. To be included on Wiktionary, it would need three CFI-compliant citations, like both senses of pro-shipper currently have. Sorry that I'm using a lot of wiki-jargon here. It can be difficult trying to explain to newer users why Wiktionary does things the way it does. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 05:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
- I feel it should be edited to include that "and/or believes in the freedom to create and consume fanworks with such elements without facing harassment" because that is the primary definition.
- Saying it is specific to problematic shipping was started by people to try to demonize the term, similar to those who claim drag queens flash kids 2600:1001:B100:2622:2511:FA8E:E29B:C977 02:58, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- There have also been a couple of users who modified the second definition to carry an explicit anti-shipping bias (one of whom went so far as to register the username "Proshippersucks"). Wiktionary isn't really the right venue to weigh the full nuances and history of the pro-shipper vs. anti-shipper debate. Wiktionary is a descriptive dictionary that documents words as they are used. To be included on Wiktionary, words must meet the criteria for inclusion. This means there must be at least three examples of the word being used ("citations") in acceptable sources over a period of at least a year. The citations for the second sense of pro-shipper show that the word can be used to refer to both 1.) shippers of contentious pairings, like Jaime/Cersei or Snape/Harry and 2) fans who take a "live-and-let-live" approach to shipping without necessarily supporting contentious pairings. This distinction – that pro-shippers don't necessarily personally support "problematic" ships – seems to be baked into the definition of the word as it is used in the second sense. Would you say that an anti-bullying stance is also baked into the meaning, i.e. that the definition should be modified to something like " […] and/or believes in the freedom to create and consume fanworks with such elements without facing harassment?" As for comshipping/comshipper, this seems like a new word. To be included on Wiktionary, it would need three CFI-compliant citations, like both senses of pro-shipper currently have. Sorry that I'm using a lot of wiki-jargon here. It can be difficult trying to explain to newer users why Wiktionary does things the way it does. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 05:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
- im talking about the second definition “A pro-shipper, according to the definition, is someone who "supports a ship or shipping deemed problematic (e.g., due to incest, age differences, abusive dynamics, etc.)” is wrong and is mixed up with the meaning of comshipping.proshippers have experienced lots of harassment online due to people seeing the wrong definition,as u can see in previous edits multiple people have tried to correct it but its just been changed back.if you would like more information on what proshipping actually is i would recommend checking out https://learnaboutproshipping.carrd.co/# (made by an actual proshipper) Cheesewheel66 (talk) 19:57, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. The definition does not explain the etymology, and bastardizes it. Pro is the opposite of anti. It doesn't stand for 'problematic'. If it did, anti would be 'antiproship'. But it doesn't, so it isn't. Where is even the source that indicates 'proship' *historically* standing for 'problematic ship'? 97.93.243.226 08:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- I have split the etymology. Equinox ◑ 08:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Equinox: I don't think splitting the etymology is the right call. I agree with various users on this talk page that the current definition implies that a pro-shipper (sense 2) supports only problematic ships. If no one opposes (@WordyAndNerdy?), I propose merging sense 2 into sense 1. Ioaxxere (talk) 20:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- The second etymology is showing up in Google, despite being incorrect. It should either be deleted or merged with the first etymology. Not only is it specifically written to insert a negative connotation and therefore lacks objectivity, there's also no semantic or historic basis for the addition of "problematic" when the "pro" means "for". Billiethe4thSage (talk) 22:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- Jumping in here because I was pinged some time ago. I've restored an older version of the entry. Both senses are derived from pro- + shipper. Splitting it into two etymologies only creates unnecessary confusion. The claim that the newer sense derives from a clipping of "pro(blematic) shipper" frankly seems like a folk etymology. There's no evidence to support this information. As for the senses themselves, there really ought to be two of them, for reasons that are tricky to explain. Older usages of "pro-shipper" and "anti-shipper" do not carry the specific moral connotations that were attached to the terms in the 2010s. When modern shipping culture emerged online in the 1990s, the primary contentions raised by "anti-shippers" were that shipping was an inherently immature activity (see Barbie shipper), and that introducing certain romantic relationships in canon would spoil a friendship or professional relationship they enjoyed. The main objection was to shipping itself rather than the perceived moral or social ramifications of supporting certain pairings. There weren't a lot of Mulder/Scully fans vehemently calling out the kind of darkfic Krycek fans regularly wrote. That flavour of fannish discourse didn't really take off until the 2010s. Today's "anti-shippers" object to ships they believe romanticise abuse, incest, power imbalances, etc. The term has acquired a narrow meaning it didn't have in the 1990s. So this entry cannot be flattened into a single definition without losing accuracy. The way this term was used in the 1990s and early 2000s differs starkly from how it has been used since the 2010s. If the entry doesn't account for that shift in fandom culture, it won't give readers a clear picture of fandom history. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 22:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- There's also the fact that the synonyms and antonyms aren't interchangeable between both senses. Anti-anti is a synonym of the second sense, but not the first. Similarly, anti is an antonym only of the second sense. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Jumping in here because I was pinged some time ago. I've restored an older version of the entry. Both senses are derived from pro- + shipper. Splitting it into two etymologies only creates unnecessary confusion. The claim that the newer sense derives from a clipping of "pro(blematic) shipper" frankly seems like a folk etymology. There's no evidence to support this information. As for the senses themselves, there really ought to be two of them, for reasons that are tricky to explain. Older usages of "pro-shipper" and "anti-shipper" do not carry the specific moral connotations that were attached to the terms in the 2010s. When modern shipping culture emerged online in the 1990s, the primary contentions raised by "anti-shippers" were that shipping was an inherently immature activity (see Barbie shipper), and that introducing certain romantic relationships in canon would spoil a friendship or professional relationship they enjoyed. The main objection was to shipping itself rather than the perceived moral or social ramifications of supporting certain pairings. There weren't a lot of Mulder/Scully fans vehemently calling out the kind of darkfic Krycek fans regularly wrote. That flavour of fannish discourse didn't really take off until the 2010s. Today's "anti-shippers" object to ships they believe romanticise abuse, incest, power imbalances, etc. The term has acquired a narrow meaning it didn't have in the 1990s. So this entry cannot be flattened into a single definition without losing accuracy. The way this term was used in the 1990s and early 2000s differs starkly from how it has been used since the 2010s. If the entry doesn't account for that shift in fandom culture, it won't give readers a clear picture of fandom history. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 22:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- The second etymology is showing up in Google, despite being incorrect. It should either be deleted or merged with the first etymology. Not only is it specifically written to insert a negative connotation and therefore lacks objectivity, there's also no semantic or historic basis for the addition of "problematic" when the "pro" means "for". Billiethe4thSage (talk) 22:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Equinox: I don't think splitting the etymology is the right call. I agree with various users on this talk page that the current definition implies that a pro-shipper (sense 2) supports only problematic ships. If no one opposes (@WordyAndNerdy?), I propose merging sense 2 into sense 1. Ioaxxere (talk) 20:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- I have split the etymology. Equinox ◑ 08:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Ongoing RFM discussion
[edit]There is an ongoing discussion at Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits § pro-shipper to proshipper about moving this entry to proshipper. I would add {{move}} to the entry itself, but it is protected. — excarnateSojourner (ta·co) 19:23, 14 December 2023 (UTC)