Talk:perfidy

RFV discussion

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Sense2 ("Specifically, in warfare, acts like using symbols like the Red Cross or white flag to attack the enemy; or placing military personnel or equipment in densely populated civilian areas, considered a war crime"). This just seems like an instance of sense1. Also, sense2 is not very clear since it provides only examples but no defn. -- WikiPedant 01:53, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

It does seem to be used to refer to violations of treaties (arguably sense 1), but also to violations of some implicit unsigned treaty concerning the rules of battle, which usually favored the side leveling the charge of "perfidy". The meaning seems to be gradually coming to mean "trickery". It doesn't seem particularly military; political and diplomatic usage possibly like sense 2 abounds. Was Odysseus perfidious or clever? DCDuring TALK 03:37, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

All true, but political and diplomatic usage is also readily covered by sense1. I'm thinking sense2 should go, especially since it's not even written as a defn. (PS, I see Odysseus as too complicated a fellow to brand as perfidious. More like a cunning, gutsy, ruthless, yarn-spinning, and pretty capable rogue who was, in spite of it all, an inspiring and sometimes soulful leader who was ferociously loyal to his family and friends.) -- WikiPedant 19:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I was more focused on the apparent drift of meaning to include acts of deceit that do not necessarily involve disloyalty or broken promises. The challenged "definition" is, um, poorly worded and would almost certainly be rendered redundant by a definition, "deceit", such as Oxford Compact and Encarta have (and others at OneLook don't). Webster's 1828 shows a very particular delineation of the faithlessness/disloyalty sense. It seems to reflect a breach of agreement or certain kinds of social or political obligations. DCDuring TALK 19:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Cited, surprisingly to me. The modern law of war uses the concept rather specifically to mean "illegitimate deception in war". I would think that rewording, though radical, would not be objectionable to the contributor. I have also added the "deceit" sense. DCDuring TALK 20:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

RFV passed. Thanks, DCDuring! —Ruakh_TALK 19:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)