Talk:liminocentric

Some background information and use verification for the term liminocentric:

I recently came across the relatively new word ‘liminocentric’, which has appeared in a couple of obscure books and online papers, and is in usage across various internet discussion forums, but does not yet appear in any dictionary (that is, before Wiktionary!). It is an interesting word getting some interesting usage, and I have come across it in a variety of places and applied to different topics, thereby displaying evidence of usage broadening beyond its original application, but keeping the same meaning. As such, I think a liminocentric entry will be a good addition to Wiktionary.

I am currently preparing a separate Wikipedia article pulling together the various context usages and fleshing it out conceptually. This article will provide a lot more detail than I can provide here.

In brief:

• Psychologist John Fudjack created the word liminocentric in a 1995 paper entitled, ‘Liminocentric Forms of Social Organization’.

• Political theorist Andrew Dinkelaker wrote a 1997 book entitled, The New Frontier in Democratic Theory and Practice: Organizational Forms that Simultaneously Optimize Autonomy & Community, where he depicted the political science concept of participatory democracy as a liminocentric form. The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill includes the work in one of its course reading lists, as does Kent State University Library.

• The 2001 book Nothing: Exploring Invisibilities, by Graham Gussin and Ele Carpenter (Eds) includes a chapter by Charles Esche (director of the Rooseum Center for Contemporary Art, Malmö and editor of Afterall Journal) titled ‘From David Hunter to Zero All is God’ that uses the word liminocentric a couple of times in relation to the "structure of reality".

• A November 2005 UK conceptual digital art installation called Kernel Panic included an interactive performance piece exploring liminocentric structures. See: http://www.tempcontemp.co.uk/kernel.html

Liminocentric also appears in a variety of internet discussion forums and blogs (covering topics from physics to religion to sport). For example, the following sports blog employs a rhetorical usage of the term: http://crackheadfe.blogspot.com/2005/11/thoughts-and-dreams.html

Emrayfo 16:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I have cleaned this up and removed a lot of your stuff - sorry, but I just couldn't understand it. I hope I have grasped the general idea with the examples I've used - let me know if that sums it up. Widsith 16:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Response to edits by Widsith, and suggested changes

Hi Widsith,

Thanks for your contribution. Especially thanks for providing the guide to pronunciation - I had no idea how to do that correctly. I do have some comments on your changes that I will address below. I would prefer to come to some agreement with you and with SemperBlotto before I just make some more changes of my own on the page.

Chronology of changes: I actually had already complied with the latest clean-up request from SemperBlotto when you made your 'cleanup' attempt - I didn't remove the rfc at the time because I wanted SemperBlotto to check it for himself. (A similar story with the rfv. I perhaps did things in the slightly wrong order for that one. I removed SemperBlotto's rfv, and then placed some references on the talk page for verifcation purposes - but there was a good lag before they went up. So I think that SempberBlotto had a quick look at the entry, saw that I hadn't added any verifcation (yet), and replaced the rfv. So my fault there.)

But back to the rfc. SemperBlotto's last clean-up comment was that I had identified liminocentric as an adjective, but had supplied definitions that seemed to cater more to a noun. So I reviewed several adjective definitions on Wiktionary and then adjusted my definitions accordingly. I didn't remove the cleanup request, and I think it was that request that you were responding to, though changes had already occurred to rectify the issue of the criticism.

Definition as adjusted by Widsith:

"1. having an edge or border which is simultaneously a centre, or which is indistinguishable from an internal area (e.g. a torus).

Fractal geography is concerned with liminocentric patterns.

2. having unclear borders or edges; self-referential.

James Joyce's Finnegans Wake has a certain liminocentric pretentiousness.

Like a recursive set of Chinese Boxes, this thesis postulates a liminocentric chain of cause and effect."

I like how you have incorporated the examples under each relevant definition line. This is a good idea.

I understand how the original definitions I put up may not have been clear enough for you, so I have phrased my more specific comments to your changes with that in mind. My only goal is to try to get as accurate and clear a definition and usage examples as possible.

The general meaning of the word is reasonably clear from the etymology - somthing simultaneously displaying both liminal and -centric characteristics. What is trickier to pin down is the intention of usage by those that have used it in some kind of technical sense. So based on my searches for usage and context I feel I have developed a good sense of the word, and what its users intend.

Specific comments are as follows:

• The word ‘patterns’ is incorrect in your first example usage phrase because it indicates the wrong relationship. 'Liminocentric' pertains to a configuration or structure as a whole. There are no liminocentric patterns (There are however fractal patterns, but the idea of patterns is not relevant here). A sufficiently well-developed complex fractal phenomenon would (taken in total), display a liminocentric relationship between its extremes.

• I also disagree with the ‘comparative’ and ‘superlative’ classes of usage you included, as these do not hold for the term. Something either displays liminocentric characteristics or it does not. It is like saying one triangle is more triangular than another triangle. It is not logically possible.

• In the second definition, I think the use of ‘self-referential’ is not precise enough, and would lead readers to think of other concepts associated with ideas of ‘the self-referential’ that are far removed from what is being described when you call something liminocentric. Similarly, saying ‘unclear borders or edges’ indicates fuzziness, which is the wrong image to draw.

• Related to the above point, whereas Finnegan’s Wake may have a hypertextual quality and elements of self-reference, its structure is not liminocentric. Following from your lead, though, I do have a suggested literary example: Vikram Chandra’s prize-winning novel ‘Red Earth and Pouring Rain’ of 1995 (Winner of the Commonwealth Writers Prize for Best First Published Book and the David Higham Prize for Fiction).

Given my comments, I suggest the following refined definitions and usage examples:

liminocentric

1. having an edge or border which is simultaneously a centre, or internal areas that are indistinguishable from boundary areas;

-The torus is a liminocentric composition.

2. describes an indentity between the very small and very large such that both are equivalent, or cannot be differentiated;

-According to some versions of string theory, the universe displays a fractal-like identity between its scale extremities (the astronomically large and subatomically small) indicating a liminocentric structure.

-Fractal geometry can be described as the geometry of liminocentric configurations.

3. an arrangement where a central element simultaneously encompasses the external elements while remaining located within them.

-Her analysis proposes a liminocentric chain of cause and effect, like a recursive set of Chinese boxes.

-Vikram Chandra’s novel, ‘Red Earth and Pouring Rain’, is liminocentrically structured. It comprises a non-linear narrative made of stories within stories which provide an elaborate system of nested framing devices.

I welcome your comments/thoughts. Emrayfo 11:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• Finnegans Wake is liminocentric by your definitions, since it has no beginning or end and loops round on itself continuously. Also, while I note your suggested changes, the best way to get them accepted is to provide citations. That way we can all assess how this word is actually being used. You mentioned some books above: can you track these down and provide quotations? That is the only way to have this word pass the RfV process. Widsith 08:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Some citations for Liminocentric

Citations:

• From a September 1999 paper, ‘The Structure of Consciousness: Liminocentricity, Enantiodromia, and Personality’, by John Fudjack. The topic is the psychology of consciousness, and gives a utility comparison between common psychological models of personality (e.g. Myers-Briggs; Enneagram) for satisfying a range of attributes (http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/j6structures.html ).

Here is a lengthy quote:

"...When, like the figure immediately above, a structure is fractal with respect only to the highest and lowest levels – fractal at its two extremities – we may say that it thus resembles what we have been calling a 'liminocentric' structure. It is (relatively) 'indistinguishable' at its highest and lowest levels of organization.

...This kind of arrangement – the looped series of nested-frames that we are calling a 'liminocentric' structure – has cropped up in various fields, where it has proven itself to be a useful model. The following diagram, for example, was used by Richard Schenchner, a Professor of Performance Studies at NYU, in his book Between Theatre & Anthropology. Schenchner was trying to illustrate the fascinating 'suspension of disbelief' that characteristically takes place in theatre and performance art, in which there is an 'agreement to let the smaller frame AB become the larger frame AB'. The resulting nested frames thereby assume what we would call a liminocentric arrangement..."

In a February 2000 paper, titled ‘About-Face Again: The Butt-head's Prominence In Modern Art’, a paper focusing on Picasso, and largely about the relationship between art and personality type, Fudjack says:

"In ‘Escher's Liminocentric Eye’ we've shown how Escher in at least one painting created a warped pictoral space that has an obvious liminocentric structure. The picture's outermost frame is represented as also appearing at the center of its own innermost recesses. As we mentioned in that paper, in the kind of structure that we call liminocentric, contextual 'levels' of organization are permitted to cross in a way that offends the principle that some philosophers would invoke as the quintessence of logic - that what is 'contained' cannot itself contain its own 'container', to paraphrase what they would say on the subject."

• Andrew Dinkelaker’s 1997 book, The New Frontier in Democratic Theory and Practice: Organizational Forms that Simultaneously Optimize Autonomy & Community depicts participatory democracy as a liminocentric form of social organisation; that is, a form which "simultaneously optimises individual autonomy and social cohesion". Dinkelaker argues that the biggest obstacle "to the realisation of democracy and ‘liminocentric’ society is the fact that we currently live almost exclusive within [what we can categorise as] Quadrant Three organizational forms" (p.96). The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill includes Dinkelaker’s work in one of its politics course reading lists (http://www.unc.edu/courses/2006spring/sowo/239/957/ ), as does the Kent State University Library (Staughton Lynd Collection of Labor-related literature).

The following is a quote from Dinkelaker’s book, under the section-heading ‘Democracy as Limino-Centric Society’ (p.93):

"...It has been suggested that forms of social organization exist in which liminality (communitas) is contained within a comparatively minimalist structure proscribed by the principles of democracy. The term that has been used for this idea is ‘liminocentric’. It is interesting to note that Turner himself came very close to this idea."

• The 2001 book Nothing: Exploring Invisibilities, edited by Graham Gussin and Ele Carpenter, includes a chapter by Charles Esche (director of the Rooseum Centre for Contemporary Art, Malmö and editor of the Afterall Journal) titled ‘From David Hunter to Zero All is God’. It was reviewed in The Guardian newspaper (UK) (April 2001); and in the arts journals The Art Newspaper (May 2001) and The Art Book (January 2002).

Esche uses the word liminocentric in relation to artistic responses to the "structure of reality". He discusses the relationship between a) artistic representations and interpretations of reality (especially those which may describe aspects of reality not available to normal sensory perception) and b) what science is now positing may constitute the underlying reality, noting that some cutting edge theories in physics indicate that:

"the reality in which we live as humans has a ‘liminocentric structure'". ( p.154)

Another citation from Esche’s essay is:

"In `fractal geometry' (which we might call the ‘geometry of liminocentric structures') one is permitted fractional dimensions." (p.155)

• From the online programme to a November 2005 UK-based art installation and performance event called Kernel Panic (http://www.tempcontemp.co.uk/kernel.html):

"...[Daedalus will be creating a] durational performance on opening night exploring 'liminocentric' structures... ...Daedalus will be making a large systematised image installation, a collaboration generated by audience participation. The exhibition mode itself seeks to break down the edges of what constitutes a social or hierarchical space, both in its creation and in its use."

Emrayfo 09:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Great work. I have added these to a Citations page and will have a look at them to try and refine the definitions we give. I have looked at your comments and they are very helpful. However I'm not sure there are really three separate senses of this word as you suggest; they all seem to be using the word in more or less the same way, so perhaps it would be helpful to try and somehow combine them - anyway, we have the material now to do that if we want, so thanks! I've removed the RFV tag as well. Widsith 10:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Three senses or One...?
Thanks Widsith. And thanks for the feedback on my comments.

I know what you mean about there being one real sense of the word (and kinda agree), but I find there may be a contextual basis for acknowledging that the types of liminocentricity being evoked can be subtly different, and this should be provided for in our definitions. I think it comes down to the types of relational attributes inherent in the relationships being represented. I’ll try to briefly sketch them out below as I’ve come across them.

• The first context is the most general, and is what I have attempted to cover with my proposed definition No.1 above. I tried to craft this as the most general ‘cover-all’ definition. I think it captures the shifting or ambiguous nature of the identity between what may at any one time constitute the ‘centre’ or ‘extremity’. I concede that my proposed definition No.3 may seem close to No.1, covering largely similar situations. As such there may be scope for combining Nos. 1 & 3, if you feel this is necessary.

• The second context is that of a kind of super symmetry (e.g. as evoked by some types of fractal arrangements, taken in their totality). This context has more of a specifically scaled aspect to it rather than the more spatial aspect to No.1. My proposed definition No.2 is therefore meant to cover this particular type of usage, e.g. for configurations that may be fractal at their extremes but not within the intervening levels (Brian Greene’s book The Elegant Universe discussed this unusual super symmetry).

• Finally, my proposed definition No.3 is meant to cover the context where the liminocentric arrangement being evoked is a more holographic one (i.e. where a part seems to contain the whole). I think it is in this third context where the apparent spatial paradox is strongest. The most common illustration is the Chinese boxes example where, instead of completing the series of nested containers at the last and smallest box, the innermost box is actually also the outermost box; i.e. that which is contained is also the container. This is qualitatively different to the No.2 context above. The No.3 scenario has been used by Fudjack to evoke the ambiguous and shifting relationship between context and content which constitute the frames of reference drawn upon in conscious thinking. It is also the type of relational dynamic referred to in the Fudjack citation above, where he references Richard Schenchner and his work on theatre and the ‘suspension of disbelief’. ((BTW – looking over it again I would be happy not to include the ‘Red Earth Pouring Rain’ usage example for No.3. as it perhaps requires more explanation than it provides. The Chinese boxes analogy is probably sufficient.))

I can see a certain overlap between my proposed definition No.3 and No.1, but I think that as No.3 attempts to represent a quite particular usage it deserves its own entry. Likewise, I think the the overall liminocentric entry needs a generalist definition to start with at No.1, and one that will be more broadly applicable to a range of situations.

Re: Finnegans Wake
Now that I have thought about it some more I can agree with you that FW has some structural characteristics that are liminocentric, but I would like to tweak the summation you provided of what these are. You said FW was liminocentric “since it has no beginning or end and loops round on itself continuously”. This perhaps is close, but doesn’t quite pinpoint it, though it did get me thinking. I do not want us to confuse one thing for another. The concepts of the recursive and the cyclical are already adequate to describe those attributes of the work that you highlighted.

First the 'no beginning or end' aspect. Liminocentric does not mean 'forever' or 'repeating'. The Chinese boxes of the eponymous example inhabit a kind of recursiveness because the innermost box is also the outermost, not because you return to the top and restart your unpacking of the boxes. We’re talking spatial coincidence not temporal recurrence. And so the meaning of 'no beginning or end' is different to saying 'an interchangeable beginning or end'.

Similarly for 'loops round continuously'. FW’s cyclical structure, per se, does not make the novel liminocentric. Rather it’s liminocentric because the ‘middle’, ‘end’ and ‘beginning’ of the book are completely interchangeable, and there is no way to distinguish between them or favour one section over another to perform one of these roles (so long as the reader maintains the narrative’s ‘arrow of time’ in a consistent direction – this is not a ‘Choose Your Own Adventure’!). This potential for interchange is made possible by Joyce because of the cyclical structure the narrative inhabits, but it is a completely separate attribute of the narrative. Being cyclical is not in itself liminocentric and Joyce could have written FW as a circular narrative without this interchange potential. There exist in the world of fiction other cyclical narratives, but they do not necessarily have liminocentric attributes. Whereas having a middle that is simultaneously an end or a beginning, and vice versa, is liminocentric.

((As a final aside, my subjective observation would be that Joyce’s FW exhibits a manifestation of liminocentricity as described by proposed definition No.1 whereas the nested structure of Chandra’s REPR is better described by proposed definition No.3.))

Sorry for my digression there on FW, I got a bit carried away, but you raised such an interesting point I had to get my head around it. Cheers! Emrayfo 12:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

RFC discussion: November 2007–December 2010

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for cleanup (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Citations:liminocentric

Quotations are too long (and old format). DAVilla 05:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Has since been fixed. — Beobach 01:28, 2 December 2010 (UTC)