Talk:innocentum

@Metaknowledge I've reverted this edit, as innocentum is definitely not the accusative of innocens. That said, the genitive plural should be, IFIRC, innocentium (compare the declension table at nocens); maybe there's a collateral second declension form innocentus, in which case the edit would be half correct? I don't have time to investigate the matter further right now though. Per utramque cavernam 11:51, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

My mistake. You are correct. The accusative (masculine and feminine) of innocens is innocentem with an e. Is innocentum a valid alternative spelling of the genitive plural innocentium? Latinstudent (talk) 14:38, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam @Latinstudent

• Georges: "in-nocēns, entis, Abl. gew. [= usually] ente" (which would mean there's both innocente and innocenti)
• L&S: "in-nŏcens, entis, adj. (gen. plur. innocentūm, Plaut. Rud. 3, 2, 5; but innocentium, Cic. Verr. 4, 52, § 116) [...] As subst.: innŏcens, entis, m."

Bad thing: From Georges and L&S one can't know if the ablative innocente and if the genitive plural innocentum belong to the substantive or the adjective. It could be that the adjective is i-declension (gen. pl. -ium) or as pseudo-participle is declined like a participle while the substantive is consonant-declension (abl. -e, gen. pl. -um). This could be an interessting question and giving rise to a good RFV, but sadly I don't have the time for the necessary research right know...

Additionaly @ Latinstudent: R U English in which language innocentem and innocentum pronounced in an barbaric English way may sound alike, or do innocentem and innocentum pronounced in your language sound alike anyhow?

-84.161.28.28 15:12, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Don't use L&S for this kind of question (and honestly, don't use RFV to pursue these questions either). PHI has a pretty complete corpus of Classical Latin, and they show only one use of the gen. pl. innocentum, as a substantive in Plautus. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:21, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

L&S does list forms, also some uncommon ones, and gives some sources and/or quotes. It's not always correct and don't attest anything, but is helpful anyway.

L&S sources for gen. pl.:

• [1] has Plautus' Rudens with innocentium, though with innocentum in the apparatus.
• [2] has Plautus' with ínnocentum
• Plautus ed. Paul Nixon vol. IV, p. 344f.:

  "vindicate, ne impiorum potior sit pollentia
  quam innocentum, qui se scelere fieri nolunt nobiles."

  "Help! Help! Let not the power of the impious be more potent than that of the innocent creatures who wish not the notoriety of being victims of villainy!"

• [3] has Cicero's In Verrem (4, 52, § 116) with innocentium as adj. ("... blood of innocent Sicilians ...")

By this PHI Latin Texts it looks like innocentum only occurs once in Plautus (in Rudens 3, 2, 5 = 619). If PHI Latin Texts would have all old Latin text - which it surely doesn't -, the entry innocentum clearly would be wrong, or give an ML or NL form in an unmarked improper way. Nontheless PHI and A&G (1903, p. 49ff. (3rd declension of adjectives) and p. 54 in § 121 b. (note about gen. pl. -um)) are good reasons to regard it as dubious and RFV it. (As for simply replacing it, I can think of only one ad-hominem argumention to justify it, namely comparing [4] & [5] and asserting that the entry creator hadn't enough knowledge, but I don't like ad-hominems.)

-84.161.35.100 23:24, 18 August 2018 (UTC)