Talk:everything happens for a reason

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everything happens for a reason

Delete: no meaning beyond the sum of parts. Transparent. Also, the definition is dumb: an event cannot be purposeful (see our definition); perhaps it should say "all events are planned". Equinox ◑ 05:42, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Seems like a thought-terminating cliche. Do we include those? - -sche (discuss) 08:21, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Bluhh. The day we turn into TV Tropes, whose entire goal is to turn every possible thought into a thought-terminator, and thus destroy imagination, is the day I... get in a time machine and go back to a GeoCities home page? Anyway, no, let's not include. Equinox ◑ 08:24, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Thought-termination would be a speech act, wouldn't it? I make fun of this all the time, sometimes even to the face of the speaker using it, but it is in widespread use and seems to me to be a set phrase.

But this could be used to offer solace (when the possible good consequence is not (yet) known: "Stay tuned for the good consequences to follow, as they always do.") or to introduce a story of the better consequences of something untoward, which serves to illustrate the truth of the proverb (if that's what it is). DCDuring TALK 13:37, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Delete. - -sche (discuss) 06:03, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Deleted. bd2412 T 17:44, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• Our prejudices are showing. Contrast this deletion with our treatment of shit happens, which is an SoP proverb. DCDuring TALK 17:52, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
  • You nominated the lot of these for deletion in the first place. So far as I know you have not nominated shit happens. In any case, their relative SoPness is debatable. bd2412 T 18:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
    • I was just wondering how egregious the display of inconsistency and prejudice would be. This could lead some to reflect on how their philosophical beliefs or inclinations influence the exercise of thier responsibilities as Wiktionarians. God works in mysterious ways, you know. DCDuring TALK 18:22, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
      • I think your prejudice is showing. Perhaps start with your own beliefs before you criticise those of others. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:25, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
        • I am so benighted that I don't see them. Perhaps you could send me an e-mail or leave a comment on my talk page explaining your beliefs about my prejudices. DCDuring TALK 19:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
          • Can you specify what inconsistency you see? There are a set of discussions here for different phrases, each with its own unique issues which prevents the group from being discussed as if they shared a monolithic identity. Perhaps the issue is not consistency between similar phrases, but an insensitivity to the differences between them. bd2412 T 20:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
            • Perhaps you could explain the differences among shit happens, everything happens for a reason, and God works in mysterious ways.

The latter two would seem to have the same truth value and be equally SoP. shit happens is different, being perhaps a vacuous SoP, possibly nihilistic truism, though someone who believed in the other two would reject its validity. All three can be found in books of proverbs. All three are set phrases, sensu lato, from which speakers and writers spin variations. As proverbs they have equivalent (not identical) speech act-functions. DCDuring TALK 21:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'll tell you why shit happens should be kept, DCDuring: when people say "shit happens", they're not talking about using the toilet. When people say "everything happens for a reason", they ARE talking about everything. "Shit happens" is clearly idiomatic. Purplebackpack89 12:37, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

  By the tired, discredited reasoning in your opening sentence we should have a mainspace entry for get the paper because it might mean "get the newspaper" and "newspaper" is not the principal sense of paper.

'"Shit happens" is clearly idiomatic.' is not an argument. The sole sentence to be taken somewhat seriously is "When people say "everything happens for a reason" they are talking about everything." Which of the following definitions of everything (from MWOnline) are they talking about in typical usage of the proverbial expression?

1a : all that exists

b : all that relates to the subject

2 : all that is important <you mean everything to me>

3 : all sorts of other things — used to indicate related but unspecified events, facts, or conditions <all the pains and colds and everything — E. B. White>

Which of these is the principal sense in your opinion? Do you have any evidence that any users of the phrase share your opinion? Which sense is being used in the phrase? DCDuring TALK 14:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

1b. Also, noting that something is idiomatic is a perfectly valid reason for keeping something, so to claim that that "is not an argument" is erroneous. DCDuring, I think you've gone a little too off the deep end in your quest to delete the phrases in this thread. Purplebackpack89 14:31, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Try to stay with the flow of the discussion. I am arguing that that everything happens for a reason is no more to be deleted than shit happens or God works in mysterious ways. I refuse to make my argument dependent on the discredited crutch of an argument you had relied on in your first sentence. I note that you did not distinguish shit happens from get the paper as inclusion-worthy, which your opening sentence implies should both be included. Have you abandoned that argument? If so, are we just to accept your bald, unsupported assertion that the phrase is idiomatic because you say so? Most us at least try to have evidence and arguments that go beyond intuition and armchair reasoning to support our positions. DCDuring TALK 15:30, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You know why I didn't mention get the paper? Because I'm not going to be drawn into the ridiculous analogy-based arguments you and Equinox put forth. If ever there was bald, unsupported armchair reasoning, it's saying "if we keep this, we'll have to keep that" or "if we keep this, we'll have to create that". As for my reasoning, there's nothing bald or unsupported about it; you either don't agree with it or don't get it. If you think shit happens should be deleted, nominate it for deletion. If you don't, stop yammering on in an unrelated (yes, unrelated) discussion that has already been closed. Purplebackpack89 16:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)