Talk:dân

Change in phonetic value

How was this word changed from original Middle Chinese "min" or "mjin" to dân? 71.66.97.228 21:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

民 was a chongniu division-IV character in Middle Chinese, as recorded in rhyme books. Some bilabial chongniu division-IV characters dentalised in Sino-Vietnamese readings, to give "d", but chongniu division-III characters never did. Hence there was definitely phonological distinction between division-IV and division-III characters, but the nature of the distinction is still debated. Pan Wuyun for example, argued in "Chinese historical phonology" (2000) that the distinction was in the glide -ɯ- (III) / -i- (IV), which existed in Sino-Vietnamese readings at that time as -i- (III) / -j- (IV). So he thought the process was *mj- > j- (Middle Vietnamese) > z- (Modern Hanoi). Personally, I think it's more like *mɨ- ~ *mɯ- > *ᵐʑ- ~ *ᵐð- > ʑ- ~ ð- (Middle Vietnamese) > z- (Modern Hanoi). 60.240.101.246 06:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)