Talk:bysen

RFV discussion: February–July 2015

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bysen

^ spelling which was originally lemmatized

bizen

^ only thrice-attested spelling

bizon, byzen, bison, byzin, bysin, byzon, by-zon

^ spellings only attested once or twice. not attested at all: bisen, byson, bysson, barzon, bazon, bizzen

I can't find modern English uses to support any of the senses; only mentions in other dictionaries and wordlists of the phrase "a shame and a bysen", which could potentially support one sense. I have not yet checked any of the many alt spellings we and other dictionaries list (bizon, bisen, byzen, byson, bysson, barzon, bazon, bizzen).
Some hits are scannos of "by sense" and eye dialect of "business", others are mentions of Old English words.
- -sche (discuss) 23:04, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

The English Dialect Dictionary has (pointers to) citations of

1. bizon (Midford's Sngs., 1818)
2. bison (Robson's Bards of Tyne, 1895)
3. byzin (Keelmin's Ann., 1869)
4. byzen (Anderson's Ballads, 1808)
5. bizen (Stuart's Joco-Ser. Disc., 1686; Linton's Lizzie Lorton, 1867; Waugh's Jannock, 1872)

Some of these may be Scots. - -sche (discuss) 23:12, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

This word most certainly still exists. It is, however, quite rare. Finding attestations to it is even harder, as the Web is cluttered with unrelated material that has to be bumped into before one can find the attestations. Tharthan (talk) 02:47, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, Eliza Lynn Linton's Lizzie Lorton of Greyrigg (1866)[1] is English and on page 97 does use the word: " […] and a bizen like this." That's one English citation of that spelling. - -sche (discuss) 22:28, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The OED gives some modern attestations for noun sense 2 and the adjective sense, mostly matching the English Dialect Dictionary citations above but also providing page numbers (could we track those down and verify?):

• a1600. A. Montgomerie Sonnets xxxiv, Fy, lothsome lyfe! Fy, death, that dou not [serve me] Bot quik and dedd a bysin thow must [preserve me].
• 1803. R. Anderson et al. Ballads in Cumberland Dial. 63 She's a shem and a byzen to aw the heale town.
• 1874. E. Waugh Jannock ii. 13 in J. H. Nodal & G. Milnar Gloss. Lancashire Dial. (1875) It'll be a sham an' a bizen, if we cannot find him a menseful of a dinner.
• 1863. J. P. Robson Songs Bards of Tyne 504 A bison sight.. The warst that e'er you saw.

Vorziblix (talk) 20:16, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I've tracked down the "Midford" citation mentioned above:

• (Can we date this quote?) Thomas Thompson, Canny Newcassel, in A Collection of Songs, Comic, Satirical, and Descriptive, chiefly in the Newcastle Dialect (1827), page 9:

  But the reck'ning, me saul! was a bizon.

So, that's an English citation of that spelling.

and the Keelmin's Ann. and Stuart citations are:

• 1869, Keelmin's Ann.:

  Te get her husband a nick nyem, an' myek him a holy byzin.

• 1686, Stuart, Joco-Serious Discourse (Newcastle):

  'And was I not a very wise one / To gang and make my-sel' a byzon?'

Also, (another edition of?) the Dialect Dictionary cites this book, which I've tracked down and confirmed:

• 1895 (edition), Michael Aislabie Denham, The Denham Tracts: A Collection of Folklore:

  She next tuke up an awde three-footed stule, / And she called him a bizon, and an awde drunken fule.

- -sche (discuss) 07:04, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I've tracked down a copy of Anderson's work, which actually uses the spelling bizen:

• 1823, Robert Anderson, Ballads in the Cumberland Dialect, page 155:

  She's a shem and a bizen to all the heale town.

- -sche (discuss) 07:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

So, we have

• bysen
• bizon (Thompson aka "Midford"; Denham)
• bisen
• byzen (Anderson's Ballads per DD and OED [copy I found actually uses bizen])
• byson
• bysson
• barzon
• bazon
• bizzen
• bison (Robson's Bards of Tyne per DD and OED)
• byzin (Keelmin's Ann. per the Dialect Dictionary)
• bizen (Stuart [actually uses byzon]; Waugh's Jannock per DD and OED; Linton's Lizzie Lorton; Anderson)
• bysin (A. Montgomerie Sonnets xxxiv per OED)
• byzon (Stuart)

I.e. the spelling bizen is attested, iff the two dictionaries are correct in their transcription of Waugh.

- -sche (discuss) 06:52, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Adjective POS RFV-failed; two noun senses RFV-failed; most spellings including bysen RFV-failed, but the "something monstrous or portentous" scrapes by as bizen. - -sche (discuss) 07:33, 7 July 2015 (UTC)