Talk:brother
Add topicThe first two senses seem as if they could be merged into one - that would better account for adopted brothers, foster brothers etc. 86.182.115.186 23:07, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
- No way. People use brother both to include adopted siblings and to exclude them. Similarly with half-brothers, step-brothers, foster brothers, brothers-in-law. DCDuring TALK 18:09, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't believe brethren is wholly archaic, especially not in the sense of "a male fellow member of a religious community or church"; for example, in the LDS church, (deprecated template usage) brethren is how the various members of the priesthood refer to one another, and not as (deprecated template usage) brothers. Also, regarding that plural form in conjunction with the derived terms (where applicable):
- google books:"big brethren"; [1] and [2] are somewhat allusive, for example
- google books:"blood brethren"
- google books:"brethren german" (maybe not for this one)
- google books:"brethren-in-law"
- google books:"brethrened" (one hit)
- google books:"brethrenhood"
- google books:"brethrenlike"
- google books:"brethrenly"
- google books:"Christian Brethren"
- google books:"co-brethren"
- none, AFAICT, for (deprecated template usage) cousin(s) brethren
- none for (deprecated template usage) everyone / -body and his / her / their brethren
- google books:"foster brethren"
- google books:"half-brethren"
- google books:"lay brethren"
- google books:"little brethren"
- google books:"soul brethren"; e.g., [3] and [4]
- google books:"stepbrethren" OR "step-brethren"
- google books:"uterine brethren"
- none for (deprecated template usage) Xaverian Brethren
The tag should probably be changed to (chiefly archaic, formal, or literary) or something. ※ Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 〰 ⓤ · ⓣ · ⓒ 〰 00:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
broother
[edit]Can someone tell me why it is written with only one "o". It is derived from OE "ō" and other words which where shortened early, from "ō" /uː/ to /u/ so they joined the foot-strut-split, are written with two o's like blood, flood.--91.7.89.206 17:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
- I think it probably is the result of bro-(ther) being an open syllable, while blood and flood are closed syllables. Open syllables normally have long vowels, with no need to mark the length. Closed syllables normally have short vowels (cop, rock, pick, buck, tack), and require special treatment if the vowel is to be long (cope, coop, pike, peak, bake, bike). —Stephen (Talk) 20:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
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Rfv-sense "A black male.". The cite given doesn't seem to support the definition at all; more context is
- "The Hightower brothers were all tall, in shape and handsome with mahogany complexions and killer smiles. Terrill loved these men like they were his own brothers. But damn if they knew when to just leave a brother alone and let him sulk in silence."
In any case, if this is chiefly used by black people (which I presume since it's marked as AAVE), it seems like a straightforward application of sense #6.__Gamren (talk) 23:49, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- The citation is not ideal because although it specifies that it is speaking about black people, when the line is expanded, it (as you note) uses "brothers" twice in seemingly a different sense before it gets to what seems like the relevant sense. My gut feeling is that this is a distinct sense, though, and Merriam-Webster, Lexico and Dictionary.com do all have it as one (Merriam-Webster as "soul brother", which they in turn define as "a black male"; Lexico as "a black man", Dictionary.com "a fellow Black man"). It is exemplified by "Is he a brother?". Probably both sense 5 and sense 3 could be made subsenses of what is currently sense 6, though. - -sche (discuss) 01:32, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've heard this a number of times in person, and on television as well. There are whole standup-comedy routines built around the cultural differences between "brothers" and "white folks". Here are a few cites that are clearly referring to race, not solidarity: [5], [6], [7] and [8]. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:54, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- -sche, the cite you added doesn't work either. "[Is] Mike Tyson [a] sell out? No, he's a black man." However, Chuck's examples seem good, especially the last one, which also uses sister.__Gamren (talk) 10:59, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- I've heard this a number of times in person, and on television as well. There are whole standup-comedy routines built around the cultural differences between "brothers" and "white folks". Here are a few cites that are clearly referring to race, not solidarity: [5], [6], [7] and [8]. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:54, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 22:36, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
RFV
[edit]- Someone who is a kinsman or shares the same patriarch.
Unfortunately it might be difficult to tell whether a use in a book refers to a literal brother or simply a male kinsman. -- Mocha2007 (talk) 15:56, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
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Rfv-sense This definition of brethren is used in older texts somewhat frequently, such as in the KJV bible, for example Exodus 2:11 — This unsigned comment was added by BiggieChungus69 (talk • contribs).
- This is referring to the sense "
{{lb|en|poetic}}Someone who is a kinsman or shares the same patriarch." added here, tagged here. - -sche (discuss) 17:04, 16 February 2022 (UTC)- I don’t have any doubts whatsoever that this contested sense is valid: the distant descendants of someone can be loosely termed their ‘children’ and a distant forefather can be loosely termed a ‘father’, so it stands to reason that distant cousins can be poetically called ‘brothers’ - frustratingly hard to prove though. Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:26, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- The closest OED gets is, at A.I.2, "A more distant male relative, such as an uncle, nephew, or cousin. Obsolete. Chiefly in translations of the book of Genesis (see note in etymology)." The newest cite given is the King James Bible. Having said this, brother is a very common word so I'd be surprised if there weren't newer uses of this sense. This, that and the other (talk) 10:58, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- I suspect you're right, though distinguishing it from "someone united by a common cause or situation" is hard, and if it is still modern, I suspect it's just the first half of the definition ("a kinsman") and often not "one who shares a patriarch" specifically. Searching for "our brothers, our kinsmen"; the first of these refers to actual brothers, but the second might be the extended sense, though as the only named relative is a speaker's brother-in-law, it's hard to be certain. There's no shortage of modern cites of people saying e.g. google books:"Jews are our brothers", which it might be productive to look though, though this gets into vague notions of "all humans are kin" (some cites are Arabs saying Jews are brothers in the human race, etc). - -sche (discuss) 15:23, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- I’ve found a couple of cites under ‘brothers of Adam’ that we might want to count ([9],[10]). Overlordnat1 (talk) 19:07, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- I suspect you're right, though distinguishing it from "someone united by a common cause or situation" is hard, and if it is still modern, I suspect it's just the first half of the definition ("a kinsman") and often not "one who shares a patriarch" specifically. Searching for "our brothers, our kinsmen"; the first of these refers to actual brothers, but the second might be the extended sense, though as the only named relative is a speaker's brother-in-law, it's hard to be certain. There's no shortage of modern cites of people saying e.g. google books:"Jews are our brothers", which it might be productive to look though, though this gets into vague notions of "all humans are kin" (some cites are Arabs saying Jews are brothers in the human race, etc). - -sche (discuss) 15:23, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- The closest OED gets is, at A.I.2, "A more distant male relative, such as an uncle, nephew, or cousin. Obsolete. Chiefly in translations of the book of Genesis (see note in etymology)." The newest cite given is the King James Bible. Having said this, brother is a very common word so I'd be surprised if there weren't newer uses of this sense. This, that and the other (talk) 10:58, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don’t have any doubts whatsoever that this contested sense is valid: the distant descendants of someone can be loosely termed their ‘children’ and a distant forefather can be loosely termed a ‘father’, so it stands to reason that distant cousins can be poetically called ‘brothers’ - frustratingly hard to prove though. Overlordnat1 (talk) 10:26, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
cited Kiwima (talk) 23:36, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
RFV-passed This, that and the other (talk) 02:24, 14 April 2022 (UTC)