Talk:brasset

Dating the arm-armor vs helmet senses

Putting early references (mentions) here, for the purpose of dating the senses and (eventually, if possible) determining etymology:

The earliest use I spotted is of the spelling brassats, in Scots, in a quote that DOST confirms means the arm-armor:

• 1590, John Stewart of Baldynneis, Ane Abbregement of Roland Fvriovs:

  His scheild, his gantlat, and his corslat tall[;] / Heir fell the brassats, thair lyis Durandal, / Strong nails he breaks, his cuissots aff did slyd[;] / His helm, his gorget, and his harneis all / In thousand peicis he disparplit wyd:

• 1676, Elisha Coles, An English Dictionary: explaining the difficult terms: Brassets, s. armor for the Arms.
• 1699, Abel Boyer, The Royal Dictionary. In Two Parts (v. 2): BRASSETS, Subst. (Armour for the Arm) Brassar, Armure de Bras.
• 1715, Edward Cocker, Cocker's English Dictionary: Brassets, F[rench]. Armour worn on the Arms.
• 1736, Nathan Bailey, Dictionarium Britannicum: Or a More Compleat Universal Etymological English Dictionary:

    BRA'SSETS, Armour for the Arms, Fr.

    BRA'SSICA [brassarts, F. braccialetti, It. braçales, Sp.] Bo-

  tany, Cole wort; also Colly Flower, L.

  [mistaken interpolation of the etymology / cognates into the next entry sic]

• 1771, Giuseppe Marc'Antonio Baretti, A dictionary of the English and Italian languages (v. 2): Bra'ssets, s. [armour for the arm]
• 1785, Abel Boyer, Boyer's Royal Dictionary Abridged: Brássets, s. brassarts, m. armure de bras, f. […]
• 1788 (repeated in 1793), Thomas Nugent, The New Pocket Dictionary of the French and English, page 37: Brássets, brassarts, pl. […]
• 1796, Johann Ebers, The New And Complete Dictionary Of The German And English Languages, page 163: Armschiene, die, […] an Armlet, a Brasset, a Harness to defend the Arm
• 1832, Dirk Bomhoff. A New Dictionary of the English and Dutch Language, page 64: Brasset, s. Armscheen, vr.

This "arm armor" sense of brasset seems to derive from a non-rhotic pronunciation of brassart (except, it seems to be older than forms with -t or -d...) or the use of a different suffix, -et; other terms with varying suffixes include crinet/criniere, poitrel/poitrine, vizard/visor. (French also used various suffixes, with brassar/brassard/brassart itself having displaced brassal.)

It is not until later that we find the "helmet" sense:

• 1845, Alphonso Wood, A Class-book of Botany, page 29:

  B R A S E' N I A. Sepals 3-4, colored within, persistent. […] Eng. brasset signifies a helmet or target. Curious water-plants, with a leaf like a shield.

  [a target is a shield]

• 1848 (repeated in 1861, etc), John Craig, A new universal [...] dictionary, page 222:

  BRASSART, bras'sɑ̌rt, s. (bras, an arm, Fr.) In Plate-armour, the piece which protected the upper arm, between the shoulderpiece and the elbow. [...]

  BRASSET, bras'set, s. The casque or headpiece of armour.

• 1864, Thomas Edwards, An English-Welsh Pronouncing Dictionary, page 141: Brasset, bras'-set, s. peniel, helm, penffestin.
• 1874, The Cabinet dictionary of the English language, page 75: Brasset, (bras'set) n. An iron or steel head-piece.
• 1899, P. Austin Nuttall, Alexander Charles Ewald, Nuttall's Bijou Dictionary, page 97: BRASSET, 8. A casque, or head-piece of armour.
• 1918, Edward Samuel Farrow, A Dictionary of Military Terms, page 84:

  Brassart. - In plate armor, a jointed plate of steel which protected the upper part of the arm, from the elbow to the shoulder. When the front of the arm only was shielded, the piece was called demi-brassart. Also written brassar and brassard.

  Brasset. - A casque or head-piece of armor much worn in ancient times.

Perhaps a misunderstanding (like passguard, manefaire) of the arm-armour term, or perhaps a corruption of bascinet?

But the usual/expected definition is still found in and after this period:

• 1873, A New Pocket-dictionary of the English and Swedish Languages, page 36: Brasset, s. armskena.
• 1878, Friedrich Ernst Feller, A New Pocket Dictionary: English, German and French, vol I, page 39: […] Brasset, s. die Armschiene, Armrüstung, brassard, m.
• 1881, W. & R. Chambers Ltd, School Dictionary of the German Language: English-German, page 48: Brasset, s. Armrüstung, f.
• 1895, Henry Percy Smith, A Dictionary of Terms, Phrases,and Quotations, page 81: Brassart, Brasset. (Fr. brassard, from bras, an arm.] The piece of armour which protected the arm above the elbow.
• 1933, OED

- -sche (discuss) 22:21, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

RFV discussion: January–March 2022

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brasset

RfV-sense: "(historical) A casque or armour covering for the head; a helmet." Edward Samuel Farrow's Dictionary of Military Terms has this, "Brasset. - A casque or head-piece of armor much worn in ancient times.", and Friedrich Köhler's Dictionary of the English and German Languages lists brasset as a translation of Helm, in a string of other words for helmets, but it's not obvious why a term for arm-armor would be used for a helmet: is it attested in use? and if so, is it a different etymology, or an error? - -sche (discuss) 23:46, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

It must be a different etymology. Unfortunately, most uses I find make it clear that brasset is a piece of armour, but most don't indicate whether it is protecting the arm or the head. A blow to the brasset could refer to either. I have moved the completely ambiguous citations to the citations page. On the main page, I think I have cited both meanings, although the 1877 cite is rather mention-y. Kiwima (talk) 02:23, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Fascinating. I expanded the Starkey cite a little to show that the context is polishing lambrequins which indeed suggests a helmet (at first it seemed ambiguous, as arm-armor could also attach to a mail-shirt). I do think the Bardsley cite is a mention, though. I'll have to look into the etymology; it might be erroneous (though, to be clear, coverage-worthy) misapplication of the arm-armor term, like manifer/manefaire, passguard, (possibly tapul) and various other terms were misused by postmedieval antiquarians. Circumstantially suggestive of that is that dictionaries I can find seem to only have one meaning or the other for the spelling brasset, but not both. - -sche (discuss) 20:58, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

If we want to rule out the Bardsley cite as a mention, then we could include this as a use, since it is used to define a German word. Kiwima (talk) 23:27, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Lists of translations in translations dictionaries seem ... borderline at best; I think CFI "filters out" "appearance in raw word lists, [...] lone definitions, and [...] appearance in someone’s [...] dictionary" for good reason; many unchecked errors and ghost-words crop up only in such word-lists in translation dictionaries (as I've noticed when trying to see if terms from Appendix:English dictionary-only terms are citeable). It's frustrating that I can't find a third use, because the two uses you found persuade me that this was a 'real' (mis)conception of at least a couple antiquarians, copied by various dictionaries (some of which are quite confident, saying it was "much worn in ancient times"). I wonder if I or anyone else can work out who originated the interpretation (Meyrick?), and whether he used the word. - -sche (discuss) 04:21, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

One way of preserving a mention and explanation of the sense, if we can't find a third use, would be something like this (maybe collapsing the quotes into a collapsible box or by sticking them in ref tags, and/or otherwise making the wording more compact). - -sche (discuss) 22:29, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 22:08, 29 March 2022 (UTC)