Talk:avere fame
Add topicI wonder whether we should keep entries like this one. Quoting from a previous discussion, "English entries with translation tables are the place to advise readers you give a look in Italian, have hunger in French, and so on." I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this argument, but merely point out that it's a good point worth considering. Imetsia (talk) 15:28, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
Italian SOP. Just collocations of verbs with particular nouns, of the type similar to what you find in the English Appendix:Collocations of do, have, make, and take. Additionally, there is precedent for deleting entries of this type (see Vox's comment that "English entries with translation tables are the place to advise readers you give a look in Italian, have hunger in French, and so on"). Imetsia (talk) 19:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about the Italian, but the French equivalents avoir faim, avoir soif, avoir peur (+ avoir chaud, avoir froid, avoir mal, avoir hâte, avoir sommeil, avoir envie, avoir honte) are no longer the mere sum of avoir + noun but are clearly lexicalised and perceived as a single unit, as evidenced by the fact that people now say avoir très faim (“to be very hungry”), avoir très soif (“to be very thirsty”), avoir très peur (“to be very afraid”), which used to be considered ungrammatical 150 years ago - très cannot be used alongside a substantive outside of these phrases. PUC – 19:54, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- The Italian and French expressions are probably similar. avere molta fame (“to be very hungry/have a lot of hunger”) and avere molta paura (“to be very scared/have a lot of fear”) are clearly grammatical, but molto is used with substantives all the time outside of those phrases. Indeed, here it's inflected for gender, which would not happen if we were to use molto as an adverb.
- I'll add also that both the Devoto-Oli and the Zingarelli do not have these as standalone phrases in dictionary entries, but rather as usage examples under avere. Zingarelli has sense 4 of avere as "to feel," with the examples "avere sonno/freddo/dolore/compassione" (respectively, "to be tired/cold/pained/compassionate"). While the Devoto-Oli has sensed 3 as "to feel feelings, emotions, etc." with examples "avere speranza/fiducia/paura/timore/voglia/piacere" (respectively "to be hopeful/trustful/scared/fearful/wanting/glad"). With a subsense "to perceive a physical sensation;" examples being "avere fame/sete/caldo/freddo/dolore" (respectively "to be hungry/thirsty/hot/cold/pained"). Imetsia (talk) 15:03, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with the approach of moving them to collocations. Similar for ter fame. - Sarilho1 (talk) 18:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- RFD-kept by no consensus. Very unfortunate outcome. Imetsia (talk (more)) 18:57, 1 February 2025 (UTC)