Talk:Thames River

RFD discussion: December 2018–March 2020

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Thames River

Sum of parts. Seems to have been created only to tell people not to use it. Equinox ◑ 18:47, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

River Thames is a redirect to Thames. We could do likewise for Thames River. On Wikipedia, Thames and Thames River are redirects to River Thames.  --Lambiam 21:31, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Redirect. The usage note can go to Thames. Fay Freak (talk) 20:42, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

I don’t know what it means to claim that it is “technically incorrect” – and who is the arbiter regarding correctness?  --Lambiam 08:35, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

In the case of a geographic feature, those who live on, in, or beside it generally get to set the naming rules. No matter how many people read "Reading" off the map as reed-ing, if the inhabitants insist it's red-ing, red-ing it is. Local or national geographic boards also may have legal power to name things. If the English, particularly Londoners, agree "Thames River" is incorrect, I'd say it's reasonable to call it incorrect.--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:54, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's technically incorrect, just incorrect in language usage in Great Britain and Ireland. In New Zealand and Australia "River" follows the name, e.g. Clutha River. DonnanZ (talk) 09:49, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

It generally does in the US as well. But if the English insist that it's the "River Thames", most other English speakers are going to respect that as correct. (Likewise "Kolkata", "Côte d’Ivoire", and "Bejing", and only the first nation has any English-speaking tradition.) Maybe "technically correct" isn't the best way to write it, but I do think that most English speakers, if told that the English use the River Thames, would accept that as the correct name.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:51, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

I had a go at rewording it. DonnanZ (talk) 22:02, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Looks good.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:33, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

As for diff, where can I verify the following: "(nonstandard, not the customary language usage in Great Britain and Ireland)"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:02, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

You might be able to find evidence for it with a clever Google Ngrams search, or you could look for prescriptions in reference works. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:57, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Google Ngram did not show Thames River to be dispreferred by language users (River Thames, Thames River at the Google Books Ngram Viewer.); it probably was not clever enough. And as for the reference works, I would have thought it is the task of people entering that kind of information to tell us which reference work they used. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:11, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Local knowledge helps. I live near the River Thames, as well as a tributary, the River Crane. You can also refer to River Shannon and River Liffey, two Irish rivers. DonnanZ (talk) 11:30, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

River Thames, or R Thames, or River Thames or Isis in the Oxford area, is the name which appears on Ordnance Survey (OS) maps (published under Crown copyright). The same applies to other rivers; there are exceptions such as the Longford River, which is not a natural river. DonnanZ (talk) 14:37, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Is it possible to do a Google Ngrams search that excludes hits that include the word "Connecticut"? Or exclude hits with American spellings like "center"? Many of the "Thames River" hits seem to be talking about the river in Connecticut. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:43, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger: Thames River:eng_us_2012,River Thames:eng_us_2012,Thames River:eng_gb_2012,River Thames:eng_gb_2012 at the Google Books Ngram Viewer.. Per utramque cavernam 16:59, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

I modified the above GNV: (Thames River:eng_gb_2012*10),River Thames:eng_gb_2012 at the Google Books Ngram Viewer., and I get frequency ratio of 10. That does not suggest "non-standard" to me; "much less common", sure. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:07, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Some facts: Thames River,River Thames,(Thames*0.07) at the Google Books Ngram Viewer.. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:02, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

• Keep. A river in Connecticut has this name. DonnanZ (talk) 09:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Most rivers are entered without "River", but this can be a grey area, e.g. Red River, Orange River. Seas are usually entered in full, Black Sea, North Sea, Mediterranean Sea, but there is also Mediterranean. I think there is a case for retaining "River" in certain entries at least. DonnanZ (talk) 10:24, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

The Grey River in NZ was derived from the surname, not the colour (see Grey), but may be worth an entry all the same. The same sort of thing applies to the Orange River. DonnanZ (talk) 12:10, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Meh. What to do with things like this that also exist without the "River" (or "Creek", etc) component is a grey area. I say redirect per Lambiam and FF, as is done for River Thames. I would do the same with Mississippi River. - -sche (discuss) 09:31, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Redirect is probably the best option. -Mike (talk) 22:09, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Sure, redirect, because Thames and Thames River are the same. Sashatrk (talk) 09:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Redirected - TheDaveRoss 15:18, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Update: I'm reading Dickens' Little Dorrit and found the phrase "Thames river" in there, so it must have been acceptable once, if not now. Equinox ◑ 15:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)