Talk:Scouts

The definitions before reformulation on May 23rd, 2008 (for archive):

1. A worldwide youth movement founded in 1907 by Robert Baden-Powell with the stated aim of supporting young people in their physical, mental and spiritual development, so that they may play a constructive role in the society.
2. The members of that movement collectively.
3. (US) The Boy Scouts of America.
4. (Australia) The Scouts Association of Australia.
5. The Selous Scouts, a special forces regiment of the former Rhodesian Army.

Hekaheka 15:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

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Scouts

[2nd definition]

Redundant sense,
2. The Boy Scouts of America, a youth organization founded in 1910.
Surely this is the same as
1. Any of several worldwide youth movements based on the one begun in 1907 by Baden-Powell in England--Dmol 16:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

That sense is not redundant; it's specific. The vague first definition was added afterwards. --EncycloPetey 16:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Consider that Chinese could refer to "any of several languages spoken in China",or could refer to "Mandarin". Some words have both a general and a specific meaning. We should not avoid the specific meanings simply becasue there is a general one. --EncycloPetey 16:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

We don't? (In this case, the "general" meaning is so rare, as to be obscure. But in general, such senses are combined, aren't they?) --Connel MacKenzie 18:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Not for a Proper Noun! Would you want the definition of Macedonia to say: "Any one of various regions or nations north of the Greek Peninsula", or would you rather it list the specific senses? Proper nouns are specific things, and cannot be expected to follow the same rules for definitions that common nouns do. --EncycloPetey 18:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

But the point I was making is that if we have the American Scouts, wouldn't we also need the Scout of Canada/India/Ireland/Fiji/Outer Mongolia, all of which would also be covered by the first definition. I don't think that the Macedonian example is valid, as these were different meanings at different times. New Guinea is another example.--Dmol 19:22, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

No, some of these are meanings at the same time. The modern Greek province Macedonia and the Slavic nation of Macedonia are a source of strife in the region for having the same name at the same time. Time has nothing to do with that. My point is that in English, the word Scouts may be used to refer specifically to the Boy Scouts of America. I would be very surprised if any English citations could be found that referred to a Mongolian youth organization. That remionds me though; we should add an entry for BSA and like it from Scouts def. 2 as a synonym. --EncycloPetey 19:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I was joking about Mongolia, but it would not be hard to find a few dozen other English language countries where the word Scouts means youth movements based on the one begun in 1907 by Baden-Powell in England. And America is included in this list. So we either need to dump the extra definition, or add dozens of others.--Dmol 19:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

This is trite. Does anyone here doubt that it actually means what's claimed? What's the difference between "1. Abc (or) 2. Xyz" and "1. Abc, especially Xyz"?DAVilla 20:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree this is trite. The "Baden-Powell" definition line is news to me, but I've never been actively involved in Boy Scouts. The reference pages from the Wikipedia page, such as http://www.scout.org/en/about_scouting/facts_figures/history/milestones_of_world_scouting verify that at some point in history, it was British. But the Wikipedia page also has a section on "Membership" which implies there is about a 5-times higher per-capita membership in the US, than in the UK (and also implies insignificant membership rates for other countries.) It is therefore about ten times more likely (at least) that any mention of "Scouts" or "Scouting" actually refers directy to the "Boy Scouts of America." I think that the "Baden-Powell" information belongs only in the etymology section (if mentioned at all.) --Connel MacKenzie 20:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course sense 2 is redundant. Whether you mention Baden-Powell or not, Scouts refers to a movement which can and does exist in a number of countries. Mentioning America or anywhere else is unnecessary and just invites a further 20 definitions to cover other nationalities. Widsith 21:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Except for the fact that not mentioning America would not convey what the word actually means. The subsequent 216 definitions could be listed as a single definition, if any of them have literary citations that actually say "Scouts" to mean "Boy Scouts of Japan" or similar. Note this isn't some American-centric xenophobic statement for the sake of patriotism. (I'm very cautious not to make American-centric statements, as Americans are badly outnumbered by British, here.) I had no idea Scouting is so rare in the rest of the world, before looking at those numbers. But, numerical analysis aside, I'm talking about how the word "Scouts" is used. Using the word "Scouts" to refer to the "Boy Scouts of Australia" is very likely to be misunderstood, right? If you were in Indonesia, you simply couldn't say "Scouts" and hope someone to understand that you meant the "Boy Scouts of Sweden." If, in Indonesia, you say "Scouts" you'd either be making a comparison to BSA or (and this is what I suggest needs citations:) your local chapter of Boy Scouts. --Connel MacKenzie 01:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. When people talk about Scouts, wherever they are, they are referring to members of what is to all intents and purposes the same well-known organisation. Of course unless they specify otherwise one assumes they mean their own national variety. So what? If you say policeman in Indonesia (to borrow your example) you wouldn't of course expect someone to understand that you meant a member of the Australian police force. Most references to policeman probably refer to policemen in the States but it does not follow that policeman means a member of a State Police Department. Widsith 16:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

That's what I would have thought, too. But checking Wikipedia (and its references) leave me at the conclusion that worldwide, it is regarded as a distinctly American entity (despite the etymological origin from the UK.) --Connel MacKenzie 17:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Not so in my experience of the words' use in the UK. To me, unless the context has already been established otherwise (e.g. if I am reading a story set in the USA), "Scouts"/"scouting" refer to the British version. Thryduulf 01:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

That's why I suggested above, that the Baden-Powell information be moved to the etymology section, and a general definition referring to the other 216 organazations be given as a second definition line. (I guess I said that unclearly?) --Connel MacKenzie 19:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Erm, what? List the American definition and then conflate the rest into one definition line? Why list the American one separately, if each country's literature uses the term to refer to the country's own scouts? — Beobach972 23:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

For reference, here are a few instances of the phrase ‘the Scouts’, and the organisations to which that phrase refers:

• (the Pawnee Scouts, a U. S. Army formation)
  • 1973: George Bird Grinnell, Two Great Scouts and Their Pawnee Battalion: The Experiences of Frank J. North and Luther H. North

    He was not pleased to find that two companies of the Scouts had been assigned to him to bolster up the eight undermanned companies of his Fifth United States Cavalry.

• (the U. S. Boy Scouts)
  • 1996: Steve Weinberg, The Reporter's Handbook: An Investigator's Guide to Documents and Techniques

    In 88 percent of the cases, the abusers’ names had been blacked out by the Scouts. More than 99 percent of the Scouts’ names were missing as well.

• (the U. S. Girl Scouts - not an independent source)
  • 1920: Scouting for Girls: Official Handbook of the Girl Scouts, published by the Girl Scouts of the United States of America

    It was contributed by private people, but the Scouts had lots of work to distribute it.

— Beobach972 22:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm resolving this by placing an RFV-sense on the first definition. DAVilla 19:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Requests for deletion - kept

Kept. See archived discussion of May 2008. 06:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Deletion discussion

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Scouts

Rfd-sense: The Rhodesian Army unit. Seems oddly specific; I can say with reasonable confidence that there are numerous army units named "SOMETHING Scouts" whose title is corrupted to just "Scouts" for convenience Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 13:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Keep. It's specific for that very reason - it refers to a specific historical group, and is well cited as such. The fact that there may potentially be other groups is not a reason to delete, it is a reason to include others if they are listed.
If, (and I think it's unlikely), there are several different groups, we can then combine the defs in to one. But for now, it's a well cited entry which means exactly what it says.
Compare Guards, Marines, Tans.--Dmol (talk) 07:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Keep but expand. When I hear Scouts in any context other than BSA, I associate it with military units that scout ahead of the main body of troops in order to provide better tactical information to battlefield commanders.; however, when used in such a context it is usually not capitalized. It is capitalized when referring to the same unit in an official sense. As for limiting it to the Rhodesian Army, I would find that more applicable to a 'Pedia article. --Jacecar (talk) 08:45, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Create general sense, delete overly-specific one. (Per Jacecar.) —Ruakh_TALK 03:53, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Delete/expand, per Jacecar and Ruakh. - -sche (discuss) 23:39, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Kept for lack of consensus to delete. bd2412 T 20:22, 6 August 2013 (UTC)