Talk:Pils

Pronunciation

@Kolmiel Out of sheer curiosity, have you really ever heard /ls, ns/ realised without a T? I would definitely and invariably describe that pronunciation as a lisp. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 11:39, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

According to the official standard, "Pils" and "Pilz" aren't homophones. (Cf. the German wiktionary entries.) I completely agree with you that this is fiction rather than reality, but as a compromise I always put both ways. Personally I pronounce the /t/ in the coda, but I think I may drop it when the Silbengrenze is in between. So Grenze could be [ɡʁɛn.sə]. Particularly before a syllabic nasal: Grenzen [ɡʁɛn.sn̩]. Also, in the coda, /pɪls/ doesn't really sound like a lisp to me. I simply don't hear much of a difference, unless I concentrate. Kolmiel (talk) 12:03, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Note that I asked User:CodeCat about these kinds of clusters some weeks ago. They said that in Dutch there's a clear phonemic distinction. So maybe in some Germans regions, too. Kolmiel (talk) 12:03, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't know about that, my mental map of German accents is pretty blank along the Rhine entirely. The distinction I make between /Cs/ and /Cts/ is intervocally alone /pɪltsə/ vs. /pɪlzə/, but I wonder: Could eins > einzig / einzeln be a hint that the T insertion is general? Also, when you speak of official pronunciation, what regulation are you basing it on? Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 14:40, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@Korn: Just to be clear, I don't make a distinction either. "Pils" and "Pilz" are perfect homophones to me. If I were to drop a /t/, I'd do so in both. As mentioned, I don't think I do in the coda, but I may with a following vowel. So I'd have Pilze /pɪl.(t)sə/ vs. Pilse /pɪl.(d)zə/.

When I say "official standard", I mean the Duden Aussprachewörterbuch and similar resources. Most of these follow a rather standardized system of rules, some of which aren't very close to what I consider normal. This system is what you'll generally find on German wiktionary. (I was about to replace "official standard" with something else, because I knew you would mention it, but I couldn't think of a better term.)

Einzig and einzeln derive from an Old High German einezzi, in which I don't know if -zz- is the geminate or the affricate. If it's the former, I still don't think it means that /t/ is necessarily general. It is, as we agree, very predominant. Kolmiel (talk) 18:35, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for filling me in, I knew I could trust you to know this kind of thing. You're also right that I trip over 'official' and for me too it sometimes differs somewhat notably from 'normal German'. You might have noticed I just change it to 'standard' and add the missing forms which the Duden Aussprachewörterbuch to my knowledge covers as well. But that's just a proposal. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 11:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC)