Talk:Odie
Add topicLatest comment: 10 years ago by BD2412 in topic Odie
Deletion discussion
[edit]
The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process.
It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.
Fictional dog in Garfield. Again, the citations are very weak. Someone saying "my dog looks like Odie" does not suggest dictionary-worthiness, any more than someone saying "TV Show X is a lot like TV Show Y". Equinox ◑ 06:15, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Delete per Winnie the Pooh. --Hekaheka (talk) 15:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Hekaheka There is no let-us-remove-Winnie the Pooh policy. Winnie the Pooh was deleted via RFV since no one provided quotations. Now, Winnie the Pooh is back with quotations that appear to meet WT:FICTION. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:02, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- Delete per Winnie the Pooh. --Hekaheka (talk) 15:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep, despite the citation being weak. This can host useful lexicographical content such as pronunciation. No added value in deleting the entry. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see much justification in this. Any writeable word or phrase can be pronounced. Equinox ◑ 01:53, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- The pronunciation of a multi-word proper name is largely sum of parts. As for attested single-word proper names, they should IMHO be included as far as possible, unless we have a very good reason to exclude them; I have never heard such a reason. Even Winnie the Pooh should be included, for the translations. If we want to exclude valid lexicographical information (pronunciation, etymology, translation), we need a reason. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:14, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think Equinox once said that if someone uploaded a load of pictures of cats, there would be no value in deleting them. So what? Renard Migrant (talk) 16:09, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think you are making a serious attempt at an argument. Of course there is value in deleting excess cat images that we do not need to support our cat entry. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- What I'm really saying is the 'no value in deleting' argument is a bad one. There's value in deleting anything that shouldn't be here. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:57, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think you are making a serious attempt at an argument. Of course there is value in deleting excess cat images that we do not need to support our cat entry. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think Equinox once said that if someone uploaded a load of pictures of cats, there would be no value in deleting them. So what? Renard Migrant (talk) 16:09, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- The pronunciation of a multi-word proper name is largely sum of parts. As for attested single-word proper names, they should IMHO be included as far as possible, unless we have a very good reason to exclude them; I have never heard such a reason. Even Winnie the Pooh should be included, for the translations. If we want to exclude valid lexicographical information (pronunciation, etymology, translation), we need a reason. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:14, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't see much justification in this. Any writeable word or phrase can be pronounced. Equinox ◑ 01:53, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. The cites are awful. I have not been able to find a single cite that even comes close to WT:FICTION. Choor monster (talk) 15:48, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. bd2412 T 15:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- @BD2412 Could you perhaps point me to a page where I can read a rationale for WT:FICTION and Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2008-01/Appendices for fictional terms? --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:16, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- The vote was presented to the community and passed with overwhelming support. I'm not sure what further rationale is needed. It didn't just come out of the blue, but required some discussion to reach the point of feeling like a vote was needed. I wish I could point you to that discussion - I see some of it here. bd2412 T 16:48, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- @BD2412 So would you agree that the vote fails the elementary standard of rationality, namely that the proposal it makes is not supported by arguments? A support, even an overwhelming one, is not a rationale. To the contrary, each editor needs to have a reason for supporting the vote, and that reason should ideally be disclosed. In a vote having a rationale where the votes are bare, they can be guessed to support the rationale, but even that is uncertain. When the voter provides a rationale, the poor reasoning is sometimes disclosed; one supporter wrote this in the vote: "I do not believe words should have different criteria just because they are fictional or because they are company names instead of brand names." This flies contrary to their supporting vote. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Dan Polansky Could you point me to any policy that requires rationality? Even if there were it would be a counsel of perfection without impact for practical people. DCDuring TALK 19:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- I know of no such policy. Some people here claimed (Lmaltier, CodeCat, Angr I think) that proper consensus-building exercise requires arguments and not just bare votes. I am quite sympathetic to this view. I wanted to be certain that I have not overlooked the rationale for the vote. There is now a considerable chance that the vote is based on poor thought which, when articulated, would get harshly bleached in the direct sunlight of critical inspection. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:20, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Dan Polansky Could you point me to any policy that requires rationality? Even if there were it would be a counsel of perfection without impact for practical people. DCDuring TALK 19:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- @BD2412 So would you agree that the vote fails the elementary standard of rationality, namely that the proposal it makes is not supported by arguments? A support, even an overwhelming one, is not a rationale. To the contrary, each editor needs to have a reason for supporting the vote, and that reason should ideally be disclosed. In a vote having a rationale where the votes are bare, they can be guessed to support the rationale, but even that is uncertain. When the voter provides a rationale, the poor reasoning is sometimes disclosed; one supporter wrote this in the vote: "I do not believe words should have different criteria just because they are fictional or because they are company names instead of brand names." This flies contrary to their supporting vote. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- The vote was presented to the community and passed with overwhelming support. I'm not sure what further rationale is needed. It didn't just come out of the blue, but required some discussion to reach the point of feeling like a vote was needed. I wish I could point you to that discussion - I see some of it here. bd2412 T 16:48, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- @BD2412 Could you perhaps point me to a page where I can read a rationale for WT:FICTION and Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2008-01/Appendices for fictional terms? --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:16, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think a rational man will not expend time on arguments, rational or otherwise, when they are not necessary or productive, as when a vote's outcome seems not likely influenced by such arguments. DCDuring TALK 19:30, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe not a rational man but a man supporting the consensus-building exercise as envisioned by some. And the rational man might simply say "as per User XYZ", since User XYZ already did the articulation for them. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think a rational man will not expend time on arguments, rational or otherwise, when they are not necessary or productive, as when a vote's outcome seems not likely influenced by such arguments. DCDuring TALK 19:30, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Dan Polansky, I would not agree that "the vote fails the elementary standard of rationality"; discussions were conducted that lead up to the vote, and the rationality of having this rule came out of those discussions. bd2412 T 19:44, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- I cannot find the rationale in these discussions. But differently, the discussions do not provide to me the answer to the following question: What is it that makes the proposer and the supporters think that the proposal of the vote is a good one, worthy their support? --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:19, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- Suppose I write a story about an alien wizard named Sklerzblerzer. That's a new word - should it go in the dictionary? Suppose my story gets published in a magazine? In a book? It seems fairly obvious that there's a large swath of activities which fall short of having that word merit inclusion in a dictionary. A line has to be drawn, and the community just did some line-drawing. bd2412 T 21:57, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- For "Sklerzblerzer", you will need three independent quotations. Independent is defined in WT:CFI#Independent, and requires that the quotations are from different authors. Why we need a stronger drawing line than presented by this is left unexplained. Is it the digital storage? Or the editing cost? Is it comparable in volume to every attested species name? --Dan Polansky (talk) 22:17, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- The issue for Odie is that the citations are very poor. The first one specifically refers to Odie in "Garfield", which is not very independent. bd2412 T 23:20, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- My subject is, is WT:FICTION supported by a meaningful rationale; since if it is not, then justification via that policy is a justification that leads nowhere as a justification. That was the subject of at least two previous posts. The subject of your post is, are quotations for Odie good enough for WT:FICTION. That is a different subject. You discuss whether the quotations are independent; they are absolutely WT:CFI#Independent. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- The third citation is of a different dog. The chatter writes about his/her former dog Odie. In the text from which fourth citation is taken, a reference is made to Garfield cartoon before discussing Odie. Does not look very independent. Do web chats really count as citations? They did not count when superoptihupilystivekkuloistokainen was deleted. Not that I would miss it so much, but it would be reassuring to see some logic in judgments. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:31, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- Re: "Does not look very independent.": It is WT:CFI#Independent. It is quite possibly not independent for the purpose of WT:FICTION and its phrase "independent of reference to that universe".
- Re: "Do web chats really count as citations": Let me remind you of our long-standing practice of accepting Usenet quotations as durably archived and thus suitable for WT:ATTEST. The four quotations that I see at Citations:Odie are all from Usenet.
- As for "superoptihupilystivekkuloistokainen": when it was sent to RFV, you provided exactly zero attesting quotations meeting WT:ATTEST; actually, Citations:superoptihupilystivekkuloistokainen could even host quotations that do not meet WT:ATTEST when properly so marked, for interest, but even there you placed no quotations at all. Here is a search for attesting quotations, which finds nothing at all: google books:"superoptihupilystivekkuloistokainen", google groups:"superoptihupilystivekkuloistokainen", “superoptihupilystivekkuloistokainen”, in OneLook Dictionary Search.. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:55, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand your objection with respect to whether WT:FICTION is supported by a meaningful rationale. I think we agree that we can't have entries for every proper name given to a fictional character, and some line must be drawn as a cutoff for including such names. I gather that your disagreement is not with the existence of such a line, but with where it has been drawn. I would suggest that if a citation refers to "Glorfindel from the Lord of the Rings", that qualifier by itself indicates that the name has not acquired linguistic significance justifying inclusion in a dictionary. Odie may be closer to the line, but I have yet to see the evidence that it crosses it. bd2412 T 14:18, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't agree that some line needs to be drawn beyong the general CFI. The general CFI already excludes non-attested items. Attestation requires three independent quotations, where independence requires different authors. WT:FICTION introduced addition to the general CFI, one whose very existence lacks rationale. I have offered the directions in which the rationale could be sought, such as disk space, maintenance, overflood (beware of species names), but no one confirmed I am looking at the right direction. I still do not know the rationale. I only know that people feel additional line has to be drawn beyond the general CFI, but do not explain why it needs to be drawn. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:35, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't understand your objection with respect to whether WT:FICTION is supported by a meaningful rationale. I think we agree that we can't have entries for every proper name given to a fictional character, and some line must be drawn as a cutoff for including such names. I gather that your disagreement is not with the existence of such a line, but with where it has been drawn. I would suggest that if a citation refers to "Glorfindel from the Lord of the Rings", that qualifier by itself indicates that the name has not acquired linguistic significance justifying inclusion in a dictionary. Odie may be closer to the line, but I have yet to see the evidence that it crosses it. bd2412 T 14:18, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- The third citation is of a different dog. The chatter writes about his/her former dog Odie. In the text from which fourth citation is taken, a reference is made to Garfield cartoon before discussing Odie. Does not look very independent. Do web chats really count as citations? They did not count when superoptihupilystivekkuloistokainen was deleted. Not that I would miss it so much, but it would be reassuring to see some logic in judgments. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:31, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- My subject is, is WT:FICTION supported by a meaningful rationale; since if it is not, then justification via that policy is a justification that leads nowhere as a justification. That was the subject of at least two previous posts. The subject of your post is, are quotations for Odie good enough for WT:FICTION. That is a different subject. You discuss whether the quotations are independent; they are absolutely WT:CFI#Independent. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:18, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- The issue for Odie is that the citations are very poor. The first one specifically refers to Odie in "Garfield", which is not very independent. bd2412 T 23:20, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- For "Sklerzblerzer", you will need three independent quotations. Independent is defined in WT:CFI#Independent, and requires that the quotations are from different authors. Why we need a stronger drawing line than presented by this is left unexplained. Is it the digital storage? Or the editing cost? Is it comparable in volume to every attested species name? --Dan Polansky (talk) 22:17, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- Suppose I write a story about an alien wizard named Sklerzblerzer. That's a new word - should it go in the dictionary? Suppose my story gets published in a magazine? In a book? It seems fairly obvious that there's a large swath of activities which fall short of having that word merit inclusion in a dictionary. A line has to be drawn, and the community just did some line-drawing. bd2412 T 21:57, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
- I cannot find the rationale in these discussions. But differently, the discussions do not provide to me the answer to the following question: What is it that makes the proposer and the supporters think that the proposal of the vote is a good one, worthy their support? --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:19, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Why have Odie when we don't have the corresponding sense for Garfield? If we keep Odie, shouldn't we have Jon Arbuckle and every other more or less famous cartoon character as well? Sometimes I have serious doubts about this project. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- Obviously nobody created the corresponding sense for Garfield. We have Popeye, and there's no reason we shouldn't add the few cartoon characters that people actually refer to this way (which I'm not sure includes Jon Arbuckle.)--Prosfilaes (talk) 07:17, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- And what about Lyman? And Nermal? And Pooky? And Herman Vermin? Especially the last one, there are at least three!
- And what is the purpose of Citations:Garfield as it is now? 90% of it should be deleted, right? Choor monster (talk) 15:09, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, no, not really. There is no rule requiring that citations be attached to an entry. We have a number of citations pages for unattached terms to explain why they don't merit an entry. What needs to be done here is to subdivide Citations:Garfield into its applicable senses. bd2412 T 02:21, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm aware of this non-attachment policy, and have used it several times myself. What I meant is that most of the citations are not attesting anything according to our WT:FICTION guidelines. That is, Odie is the fictional dog, but we don't consider "Odie" to have entered the language until we get citations like Come on, Fido, stop playing Odie with me! And yes, our policy may change, but I find it distracting to have non-policy-now citations mixed in. And certainly in the case of Odie, the character is so well-known I doubt anyone would insist on citations. (Unlike, say, Herman Vermin.) Choor monster (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- There are other reasons why it makes sense to keep them. For example, if "Odie" (as a comic character still in use) does come to meet the CFI in the future, we won't need to reinvent the wheel in collecting earlier citations. We can also keep a note on the Citations page to show that we know these uses exist, but the community has determined that they don't justify inclusion of the word in the corpus. bd2412 T 16:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm aware of this non-attachment policy, and have used it several times myself. What I meant is that most of the citations are not attesting anything according to our WT:FICTION guidelines. That is, Odie is the fictional dog, but we don't consider "Odie" to have entered the language until we get citations like Come on, Fido, stop playing Odie with me! And yes, our policy may change, but I find it distracting to have non-policy-now citations mixed in. And certainly in the case of Odie, the character is so well-known I doubt anyone would insist on citations. (Unlike, say, Herman Vermin.) Choor monster (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, no, not really. There is no rule requiring that citations be attached to an entry. We have a number of citations pages for unattached terms to explain why they don't merit an entry. What needs to be done here is to subdivide Citations:Garfield into its applicable senses. bd2412 T 02:21, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- As someone who has come late to the game here, with policies like WT:BRAND and WT:FICTION already in place, I thought they simply made good sense, and that was that. Start a WT:BP discussion, but here it is very distracting clutter. I have been happy to find WT:FICTION attestation for numerous fictional characters. Choor monster (talk) 15:09, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Deleted. bd2412 T 02:00, 26 August 2014 (UTC)