Talk:Obulco

Turduli toponyms

@-sche, Isomorphyc, I'm so meta even this acronym: So, this name apparently comes from the w:Turduli placename Ibolca. What's the best way to represent this on here? Should I add an etymology-only language? —JohnC5 15:12, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@JohnC5: It's utterly fascinating that an Anatolic language would be spoken in Spain in the centuries between the Hittite and Athenian empires. I personally would just have typed the language name, but in my view an etymology-only language would be provide a valuable collation service, even if it were for just a few town names. Of course, I do not know if Wiktionary has policy about this. Isomorphyc (talk) 15:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia's articles, which contain suspicious misspellings, claim the Turduli left inscriptions; if that is true, we should add a full code, but I've found no evidence that it is, or that the Turduli language was Anatolian. It seems to be an oversimplification of the analysis of the Turduli as being related to the Turdetani and the Turdetani as being related (including in speech) to the Tartessians whose language is inscribed (and unclassified!).

Villar's Indoeuropeos y no indoeuropeos en la Hispania prerromana contains a page-long discussion of theories of Obulco’s descent from an earlier pre-Roman Ibolka with, according to Tovar, ib- rendered with the Latin prefix ob-; Villar is sceptical of the details, especially that -a would be rendered -o instead of the very acceptably Latin and very common -a; still, Villar concludes that "Probablemente a J. De Hoz tampoco le resultó convincente cuando se sumó a la atribución de lenguas propuesta per Tovar (Obulco latinización de ibolka) pero no a su detalle explicativo." AFAICS he never says the name is specifically Turduli, though; indeed, not many sources that I have found do, but some do, like the site you link to.

We have a generic code und-ibe "pre-Roman (Iberia)". We could just spell out "Turduli" in text (as Isomorphyc mentions) and let that code provide the categorization. If we created a code for Turduli we'd have to name it (und-tur?) and decide whether it should be a full code or an etymology-only code, an interesting question: we do seem to have some full codes for lects where scholars have identified words within placenames, but the reconstruction of Turduli is apparently not that advanced. I suppose we should make it etymology-only for now (or just use und-ibe) and reconsider if words turn out to be attested. I would use the two codes together in etymologies to obtain "from Turduli (Pre-Roman (Iberia)) foo", and/or I'd make the "terms derived from Turduli" categories into subcategories of "terms derived from pre-Roman (Iberia)". As an aside, can't we find a better name for "pre-Roman (Iberia)" and "pre-Roman (Balkans)"? Maybe "a pre-Roman language of Iberia"? That way categories display "terms derived from a pre-Roman language of Iberia" and entries can say "from foo in a pre-Roman language of Iberia"?

- -sche (discuss) 17:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@-sche: I've done a little research on the Turduli, but it has been hampered by the fact that my Spanish is mosly triangulation between Latin and French. This article discusses their (Turdulian? Turduli? Turdulese?) culture in a fair amount of detail, though to my eye it does not seem to indicate they had inscriptions. On the other hand, Smith's entry for Arsa implies that inscriptions do exist. Also, Roman authors claimed that the Turduli had an alphabet of some sort. Turduli are often considered Celtic in the materials I've read (and on this map from the very article claiming that the Turduli were Anatolian).
As for the question of und-ibe's name, "pre-Roman (Iberian)" is pretty weak. In other places, we tend to talk about substrate languages like the Ancient Greek etymo-magical wand "pre-Greek substrate" (qfa-sub-grc). I would propose renaming these to "pre-Roman substrate of Iberia" and "pre-Roman substrate of the Balkans". —JohnC5 01:06, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

@JohnC5: The source given for the Anatolian theory of the Turduli is Povos antigos em Portugal by Amaral and Amaral, which is slightly searchable here: https://books.google.com/books?id=RQEkAQAAIAAJ . The pages cited in the Wikipedia are more-or-less those listed in the index of that book for the Tartessi. I am unable to see the index reference for the Turduli, but a few words on a few pages appear when searched. On page 67, concerning either the Turduli or the Tartessi or perhaps the Phonecians, I do find a reference to Anatolia: Provinnam originariamente do Egeu da peninsula Balcanica e da Anatolia litoral . (They originally come from the Aegean, from the Balkan or Anatolian coast.) I am not able to verify the citation from the preview, but something similar is clearly being said. A book called Lost Languages from the Mediterranean, ed. Best and Woudhuizen, has a chapter called The Tyrrhenian Branch of Alphabetic Luwian. This chapter seems to connect the Luwian language family (which is Anatolian) with the Lemnos stele, and on page 150 connects the glyphs and a few words in some Tartessian (not Turdulian) inscriptions with that text. I get the sense an arugment is being made (here and elsewhere) for an Anatolian origin of the Etruscan civilisation, and at a minimum trade and linguistic intercourse with the Tartessi. I do not get the impression that there is any mainstream theory for the linguistic genaeology of the Turduli or the Tartessi, and I also do not find any references to Turdulian inscriptions at Arsa/Azuaga outside of Smith (and unfortunately I do not know how to interpret his citation involving Florez.) I'm sorry this is all so inconclusive; I felt I should say something because I didn't want to give the impression this is being ignored, so much as that it is all a bit spare.

That said, the Turduli section here w:es:Porcuna says a Turduli alphabet descends to us only on coins and some steles. (The section is Época túrdula). I hope some of this is helpful. Isomorphyc (talk) 19:43, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

@Isomorphyc: This is very helpful. I don't think many linguists believe that the Tyrsenian languages are related to Anatolian. If there are Turduli coins and steles, then we should add a language code. —JohnC5 20:06, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

@JohnC5: This seems reasonable. Isomorphyc (talk) 00:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I see a report of "new[ly discovered] inscriptions" in the Boletín de la Real Academia de la Historia which specifically speaks of a "Turduli language" as the language/source of several personal and place names: "El giro exótico de esta inscripción es clara señal del idioma túrdulo que hablaba Ceturgis. A este nombre masculino dan fácil explicación varios ibéricos de personas, registrados por Hubner: Caturis, Caturicus, Caturo, Caeto; y varios geográficos: Caetobriga, Cetobrica y [SYMBOLS] (Arcedurg), relacionado probablemente con Cadurci, del que brotó Cahors al otro lado del Pirinco." The Spanish Wikipedia suggests the Turduli language and writing were forms of the Tartessian language and script, like also that of the Turdetani and for that matter (according to some scholars) the less-central Tartessians themselves — that is to say, a few scholars argue that even the outerlying "Tartessians" did not speak "Tartessian proper" but dialects. It does sound like this merits a full code. (Does Turdetani also? Tartessian already has code, granted by the ISO/SIL itself.) But I'd really like to find the text of the inscriptions that are said to exist, rather than just going on the statement that some exist, given the ambiguity over whether there are really Turduli inscriptions or just peripheral Tartessian ones. - -sche (discuss) 00:51, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

... because e.g. The Numismatic Chronicle of circa-1853/4 (digitized in several editions: [1], [2], etc) discusses some coins that might be from Arsa, but might just be from Arae Sestianae, and might just be forgeries: "how many false coins appear in the last volume of Florez?" (the same Florez as above?). - -sche (discuss) 01:01, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

For what it is worth, here are two nearly identical Wikipaedia articles on the same topic under two different names: w:Turduli Oppidani and w:Turduli Veteres. These articles concern the Lusitanian Turduli, who migrated from Andalusia to Lusitania in the fifth century. The Spanish article on the Lusitanian Turduli is more informative: w:es:Túrdulos viejos, and specifically cites the unique instance of epigraphic testimony: Las referencias a estos pueblos son muy escasas, limitándose a pasajes de Plinio y Pomponio Mela,1 así como unos singulares testimonios epigráficos (dos tabulae patronatus halladas en Vila Nova de Gaia, fechadas el 7 y el 9 d. C.2. If the language is still the same, is it possible some of the inscriptions attributed to the more southerly Turduli are these? The original citation is indeed a book about ancient peoples of Portugal. Also, there are Turduli coins here with some letters on them: [3]. Please look for the string `Túrdulos' for the relevant items. I don't know if these coins are related to those which you mention, User:-sche-- I saw your comment only as I am posting this note. Isomorphyc (talk) 01:36, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Hurray for more language codes! :3 —JohnC5 04:08, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

@Isomorphyc: That link is helpful, and interesting because most of the coins that are identified as coming from the Turduli people seem to have Latin-script inscriptions, e.g. VLIA, which make me question if their makers would have been speaking and printing them in the Turduli lect or in Latin. One author of that era said that the Turdetani (and perhaps the Turduli) Romanized quickly and fully to the extent that they no longer used their own language. The most promising coin is the coin that supposedly says O-ka-n-a-ka, and even it has several problems: it does appear to say O-ka-???-ka, but only if the glyphs are read left-to-right (whereas the southeastern script was supposedly written right to left) but with the glyph for 'a' flipped, and although Okanaka is claimed by that site to be the name of a city in Hispania Ulterior, I can't find other confirmation of such a city. Curiously, the site identifies the Obulco coins as Turdetanian, but literature seems to agree that the city is Turdulian. The site also has coins with Iberian-script inscriptions which the site says are Turdetani. Do we need a code for Turdetani? do we have a hope of being able to tell Turdetani and Turduli inscriptions apart?

@John: I started thinking, after you asked me about Proto-Qiangic, about why we don't consider reconstructed languages to be "etymology languages". (Obviously {{m}} and {{head}} accept one kind of code but not the other, but that's changeable.) I came to the conclusion that words in reconstructed languages would merit entries [in the main namespace] if suddenly found to be attested (like ᛖᚲ#Proto-Norse has been found to be attested and thus has an entry), whereas "etymology language" words don't merit entries because they are treated as mere dialects of another language (as with Cajun French) or are not necessarily a single languages (as with "pre-Roman"). With Turduli, I suppose the lect existed whether or not we have entries to make in it yet, and thus merits a code... but I am frustrated by the relative paucity of clear authoritative statements that "X is a Turduli word, meaning Y, found in Z specific place", "Z particular stele / coin is inscribed in the Turduli language and says X". Especially because the things that are claimed to be attestations seem, so far, to not be. - -sche (discuss) 05:42, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

So... —JohnC5 03:09, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

@-sche, JohnC5: Apologies for the delayed response and the length of this note. There are several issues here: Pre-Roman is largely a more tenuous category than Pre-Greek because `Greece' had empires both prior to the so-called Greek Dark Ages and after, and Pre-Greek is largely vocabulary derived from these earlier periods. Latin's Republican and earlier borrowings tend to be geographically Italic (whether Proto-Italic, Etruscan, or Sicilian Greek), `Mediterranean' (to use the Beekes term) usually via geographical Italic, or Greek borrowed later, during the Macedonian Wars, or of course after. Iberian borrowings tend to be Celtic, from Julius Caesar and later. For Greek, we do not always have language codes for the Pre-Greek languages from which non-proper words derive. So far as I can tell, we have a quarter dozen Tarduli proper names (Illiberi and Arsa (and possibliy Bardili) and a half-dozen or so Turdetani places (Carisa, Seria, Laelia, Onuba, Nebrissa, Ilipa, for which list of entries we have a debt to User:Samubert96). I think there are at least a further three dozen Turdetani places, some of which are likely in originally Turduli territory and derive from originally Turduli names, which we are missing. I think there are also likely a few place-names in Portugal from Turduli which we do not have. I think this justifies at most etymology-only codes, as we do not have any definition for any non-proper word in either of these languages. It should be said that Beekes personally contributed enormously to our understanding of Pre-Greek, and this is reflected in his dictionary, whereas De Vaan's scholarship is largely IE, and his dictionary by design, as I understand it, is intended to be comprehensive only with respect to Latin words deriving from IE via Italic.

The distinction between Turduli and Turdetani is evidently archaeological, numismatic and from classical sources. According to Strabo, in the first century the Turduli where indistinguishable from the Turdetani; the then extant peoples largely had Roman customs; but had their own alphabet (Geography III.i.6 (English), referring to both as Turdetani. Coins from Obulco itself in both the Roman and some kind of Iberian alphabet can be found pictured here. Strabo also says in this section that Polybius had said (two centuries earlier) that the Turduli and Turdetani were distinguishable peoples. Further, Ptolemy (the geographer, of course), also treats the Turduli and the Turdetani as separate peoples. It is at this time that the Turdetani (not the Turduli) was defeated by the legions of Cato the Elder. According to Strabo, the Turdetani derived from the Tartessians, and he implies they believed themselves so to derive. To clarify my comment about the steles, on the Portuguese Wikipaedia, the article says that the Turduli language is written in the same alphabet (or script) as the Tartessian language, in which steles exist, i.e., I think, the variously called Southwest Iberian (or Paleohispanic), South Lusitanian, or Tartessian script. This seems to be consistent with the non-Latin script on the coins from Obulco. A significant body of Tartessian inscriptions exist, mostly from the funerary steles, on the order of many hundreds or thousands of characters, from somewhere between the eighth and fifth centuries BC, prior to Roman contact with the later Turdetani. I do not get the impression much or any non-numismatic writing from the Turduli survives; I am currently unsure about the Turdetani, but do not currently find any references.

This leads me to think that Tartessian probably deserves a language code. There seem to be three pre-Roman Iberian language families: Celtic, Vasconic (Basque), and Tartessian/Turdetani/Turduli. I suppose it is unknown whether the latter three are related, but there seems to be a broad but not unanimous consensus that Tartessian is not IE or Vasconic. The circumstantial evidence seems to be that all three languages are related, but this is only from observing that the peoples live in the same places, used the same script, assimilated into Roman culture at about the same time, and apparently in about the same way, according to Classical observers. To my mind Turdetani and Turduli may or may not deserve etymology-only language codes. I would like, however, for us to be able to write a reasonable About Language X section for any language for which we do create a language code, citing either academic or primary sources, and not perpetuating errors in the various conflicting Wikipaedia articlces in various languages.

I don't have any especial knowledge about any of this, but only have been reading around a bit in the last few days, so that I hope what I have not written is not widely off the mark. What do you all think?

For reference, in addition to Povos antigos em Portugal, here are a couple more bibliographical entries for which I not seen complete texts, but appear as though they may have reasonably up-to-date information, or which have been cited supporting slightly more specific claims than I have been able to make here:

Los turdetanos en la historia : análisis de los testimonios literarios grecolatinos. García Fernández, Francisco José. Editorial Gráficas Sol, S.A. →ISBN

García-Bellido, M.P. Célticos y túrdulos en la Beturia según sus documentos monetales, en Celtas y túrdulos: la Beturia, Cuadernos emeritenses 9, Mérida, 255-292.

Isomorphyc (talk) 18:42, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

@Isomorphyc: Thank you for all this work! Did you get a chance to look at:

• Díaz, Pablo Paniego. “Los túrdulos del occidente peninsular”. Revista Historia Autónoma 5 (2014), pp. 27-41. e-ISSN:2254-8726

I'm curious whether it possesses any useful information. Regardless, I support your recommendation for etymology-only languages. —JohnC5 19:09, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Isomorphyc: thank you for your continued insight! @John: I too am sorry for my delayed response / that this has dragged on for so long; I hoped that Turduli inscriptions/coins/etc could be found that would make it clearer whether it needed a full code or not. The article (PDF) you link to seems to only be about the difficulty of determining whether the several peoples in separate areas called Turduli / Turdetani were related, and in determining where various towns lie, and the spottiness of the archaeological record; perhaps I missed something, but it doesn't seem to provide words, beyond perhaps some more placenames. I have added the etymology-only codes und-tdl "Turduli", und-tdt "Turdetani". If there prove to be steles or even just coins that are authoritatively stated to be inscribed in one language or the other (whereas the coin-site mentioned above, while tantalizing and possibly useful for leads, seems to have several issues as I noted above), even if they only attest placenames, the codes could probably be updated to full codes; I'm not sure if we have granted codes to languages from which only proper nouns are attested, but I think the ISO/SIL has (Pictish). - -sche (discuss) 02:43, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

@-sche: And let Illyrian not go unremembered. —JohnC5 05:12, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

@JohnC5, -sche, Isomorphyc: I have nothing to add here, except to say that I found this discussion fascinating. Thank you very much, John, for pinging me; and the same to all of you for your contributions to the discussion. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 18:16, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

@-sche: I don't think I've said anything which you didn't enunciate close to the beginning of this conversation, but thank you for putting up with my being new to this. I've enjoyed this chat with all of you quite a lot. Isomorphyc (talk) 00:45, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

@JohnC5: You might be disappointed that the article does not have any highly pertinent linguistic information, as -sche points out; but I found the first half of it, which is less archaeological, extremely interesting in that it summarises some research on the ethnic identities of the Turduli and related tribes, and contrasts some of it with the classical authors. I think Untermann particularly may be interesting. I took a few notes and made (extremely rough) translations of the passages which seemed especially interesting. Also, I translated the catalogue of cities and archaeological sites towards the end since a great many of these are or are likely to be dictionary entries soon, so it might be helpful to have them all in the same place. Finally, if Untermann has a strong Celtic argument, this is something we will have to consider. It is not much considered in this article. Apologies for the prolixity and any ugliness in the translation. Isomorphyc (talk) 00:45, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

@JohnC5, -sche: One last thing: I think I have found the last inscription implied to exist in a Wikipaedia article. I had cited this: [w:es:Túrdulos viejos], quoting, referencias a estos pueblos son... limitándose a... así como unos singulares testimonios epigráficos (dos tabulae patronatus halladas en Vila Nova de Gaia, fechadas el 7 y el 9 d. C.2. I believe these are the same as the writings mentioned in the very last subsection of the article summary below. The citation in the Wikipaedia article is to: Martín Almagro-Gorbea and Mariano Torres Ortiz, La Colonazación de la Costa Atálantica de Portugal: ¿Fenicos o Tartesos? Acta Palaeohispanica 2009, pp. 113-143. They are referring to 'las dos tabulae patronatus halladas en Gaia (da Silva 1983; 1986, 310 s., lám. 141; 2007), que confirman que este pueblo aún mantenían su conciencia étnica a inicios del siglo I d.C.' This citation is to: da Silva 1986: A. C. F. da Silva, As tesserae hospitales do Castro de Nossa Senhora da Saúde ou Monte Murado (Pedroso, V. N. de Gaia). Contributo para o estudo das instituções e povoamento da Hispania antiga”, Gaia 1, 1986, pp. 9-26. This is apparently the same source cited by Díaz on page 30: 'Arqueológicamente se ha constatado la presencia de los túrdulos en el Noroeste gracias a dos téseras de hospitalidad, datadas en los primeros años del siglo I d. C., en los que se menciona a dos miembros del pueblo de los turduli veteres.' Being from the first century AD, and being deciphered, they are clearly in Latin and are not, at least, attestations of continuous Turduli text. I wish it hadn't taken so long to clarify that. Isomorphyc (talk) 01:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Aha! Excellent work in tracking that down and figuring it out. For my part, I've been looking for coins from Turduli or Turdetani areas with Iberian-script inscriptions. one thing I've noticed is that a number of sites have copies of what appear to be the same mint of coins (same face and design especially on the periphery) but which have clearly different glyphs, which often don't make sense or resemble the letters that they are claimed to be. I suspect some of the sites have simply "reconstructed" and reproduced the coins, and done so faultily. So, I have been looking at only university and museum collection sites, but so far the only coins with clear Iberian-script inscriptions are from the north. However, I have found one lead: Karl Horst Schmidt and Rolf Ködderitzsch, Geschichte und Kultur Der Kelten: Vorbereitungskonferenz (1986, →ISBN), as part of theorizing that the attested words are Celtic, mentions "dh as d in Medugenus, Bodilcos (the latter name appears in Iberian and Latin script on coins of Obulco)". I just can't find the coin. - -sche (discuss) 21:05, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

@-sche: Thank you. I have found in books several coins very similar to the one you mention; in some cases the caption implies the Iberian script is on the side with the eagle, in others, it is implied to be on the side with the portrait on which it seems only Latin script is legible. I do get the impression that the same images were struck on different occasions with different captions, in some cases with different scripts; so discrepencies may be the result of very similar coins rather than bad reproductions. I have found this however: [4]; does it satisfy many of our criteria? Isomorphyc (talk) 01:11, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Here is a crude drawing of a coin with an inscription which may be this place name. - -sche (discuss) 22:15, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Summary of Los túrdulos del occidente peninsular, by Pablo Paniego Díaz (2014)

Who are the Turduli?

1. `There are at least two western peoples located in different territories called the Turduli, some in the northwest, with the appellation Veteres, and another in the southwest, in Beturia... There seems to be no relationship between the western and southern group.' [The article never enunciates this claim so strongly again.]
2. The term Turduli may derive from the term Turdetani, but both peoples likely derive separately from the Tartessians (Untermann, Jürgen, “Célticos y Túrdulos” en Paleohispánica: Revista sobre lenguas y culturas de la Hispania Antigua,)
3. For some authors, following Strabo, the (Baetican) Turduli were more interior, hence more Celtic and less Roman, but directly related to the coastal Tartessians
4. Conversely, following Untermann, the Turduli migrated with the Celts from Celtiberia to Baetica. In this case the ethnonym means `young blackbirds.'[10]

[10]: Untermann, Jürgen, “Célticos y Túrdulos” en Paleohispánica: Revista sobre lenguas y culturas de la Hispania Antigua, 4 (2004), pp. 199-214

Turduli Territory

1. The complexity of speaking of Turduli is increased by their being two groups, each influenced by Celts and Basques, several hundred kilometers apart
2. In the classical period, the Lusitanian Turduli (Turduli Veteres) were believed to have migrated before the Roman period due to military campaigns in alliance with their Celtic neighbours. Modern research instead suggests the Lusitanian Turduli migrated after the Roman peiod, either in alliance with or against the Romans, possibly for the purpose of mineral extraction; however, a prior, lesser migratory tradition which this follows is possible. When Pliny mentions Lusitanian Turduli cities north of the Tagus, this is due to his misunderstanding of the geography.
3. Conversely, Maia [17] argues the Turduli would have settled there from the seventh century BC, and would have been overpowered by a new Celtic ethnic group.
4. Quoting directly: `Archaeologically, the presence of the Turduli in the Northwest has been determined thanks to two tesserae of hospitality, dated from the early first century BC, in which two members of the Turduli Veteres are mentioned.' (Presumably any text is in Latin, excluding proper names?)
5. The Turduli and Turdetani can be different groups or can represent different degrees or orientalisation (mostly Phoenician influence?) of the same peoples, the Turduli being more inland
6. Pliny, Strabo, and Pompoinius Mela speak of Turdili near Cadiz. (Note on the map which has a small area of Celts at Cadiz amidst the Turdetani)
7. Inhabitants of Beturia are never called Beturians in classical sources, but either Celts or Turdili. Frontiers in Beturia were somewhat dynamic in the pre-Roman period [25]
8. The existence of the third Turduli group, the Bardili, creates more confusion [28]. Two major possibilities: Turduli was a term used for a variety of orientalised non-Tartesians. Or they had occupied much of Lusitania and Baetica, and later Celtic settlement created islands, as Maia proposes (see footnote 17).
9. `Ptolomy, a less credible author, and one who confuses Turdetians and Turduli, situates the Bardili in various locations, some interior and some costal....'
10. Untermann sees two groups of Turdulos, Hispanoceltics and Baeticans, seeing a `casual homophony' in the terms as used by classical authors. He sees the oldest references to the Turduli, those of Polybius, as the most reliable; Polybius clearly distinguishes amongst the Turduli, the Celts, and the Turdetani. Quoting: `Pliny, in his description of Baeturia, identifies them as a people different from the Turdetani and quite distinct from their neighbouring Baeturians, the Celts, although the close relationship creates a significant Celtic influence on the Turduli area. Pliny (?) believes the Turduli to be a western population which Untermann considers indoeuropean, situating them in the area of Cadiz. Conversely, Strabo consideres Turdetani and Turduli the same people and this accords with Roman authors who consider common roots more than differentiators. Still again, it has been explained that in the case of Strabo this is an intentional act in which he artificially praises the civilising Augustan policy, elevanting a barbarised peoples such as the Turduli to the Turdetanorum advanced level, the most civilised of the Iberians, according to him.'

Footnote 17: Maia, Manuel, “Algumas reflexões em torno da cultura do Sudoeste”, en Veleia, 2-3 (1985-1986), pp. 433-455.

Footnote 25: García Fernández, Francisco José, “Etnología y etnias de la Turdetania en época prerromana”, en Cuadernos de Prehistoria y Arqueología de la Universidad Autónoma de Madrid, 33 (2007), pp. 117-143; García Fernández, Francisco José, “Tartesios, Túrdulos…” op. cit.

Footnote 28: Plin. Nat. 4, 118.

Cities

1. Archaeological data scarce; reliance on literature. Western Turduli archaeology is mostly in Beturia. Cities [oppida] are speculated to exist between the Duoro and the Tagus, corresponding according to Perez Vilatela to Aeminium, Conimbriga, Collippo, Eburobritium, Trubriga being known only epigraphically.
2. Pliny offers a list of names in the southwest: Arsa may or may not be Azuga; `Mellaria seems located in Fuente Obejuna (Cordoba) identified thanks to epigraphic[44] remains and could be Balleia, which is only known for its coinage.' Nearly quoting: Mirobriga is located in the Cerro del Cabezo (Capilla, Badajoz), with excavations conducted there and in Regina (Casas de Reina, Badajoz). Sosintigi or Sosontigi has been located to Alcaudete (Jaén), thanks to epigraphs[48], or perhaps to Saint Euphemia (Cordoba), the place with the most spacial logic for finding the rest of the oppidum. The last of the named places in Pliny corresponds to Sisapo (Almodovar del Campo, Cuidad Real), but respecting this, note that the archaeologists prefer to identify this as Oretana [51] according to Ptolemy's [52] attribution, such as Garcia-Bellido [53] after studying the coinage. This difference can reflect political, cultural or perceptual changes over time.
3. Quoting directly: Other identified settlements would be Contosolia (Magacela o La Coronada, Badajoz), Solia (El Guijo, Córdoba), Baedro (Belálcazar, Hinojosa del Duque or El Viso, Córdoba), Iulipa (Zalamea de la Serena, Badajoz), whose name could also have been Artigi (Castuera or Zalamea de la Serena, Badajoz), although all researchers do not accept this last hypothesis [57]. The Municipium Flavium V(---) would be situated in the vicinity of Azuaga y Turriregina only known for numismatic remains [59]. Fornacis, well studied and with chronology fully Roman would be in Hornachuelos (Ribera del Fresno, Badajoz) [60]. Laci(ni)murga is one of the settlements which has inflamed the greatest controversies and is found in the Cerro de Cogolludo (Puebla de Alcocer, Badajoz). It has been united with Pliny's Lacimurga Constantia Iulia [61], despite being found in the Turdulan region, when he numbers it Celtic. The said ruins have been adjudged as the Vettona city of Laconimurgi [62]. The hypothesis that homonymous cities exist and that Pliny's city does not correspond with this place is the most successful one which this research has reached. If we focus on archaeology, we can note that the settlementes considered to be Iron Age II and Iron Age Final in Turduli Beturia tend to occupy the most prominent positions, with size varying between one and seven hectares , and in some cases more, with great strategic value for visually dominating the territory or to their closeness to shallows or the Guadiana-Guadalquivir. Notable sites include Entrerríos (Villanueva de la Serena, Badajoz), Cerro Cogolludo (Puebla de Alcocer, Badajoz), La Tabla de las Cañas (Capilla, Badajoz), Peñón de Pez (Capilla, Badajoz) o Higuera de las Dehesillas (Llerena, Badajoz), along with Sisapo and Medellín. We have judged the existence of certain sites larger than four hectares to organise the space, and on them depend others of size between one and three hectares.
4. Quoting directly again: The internal organisation of the settlements of Turduli Beturia is not yet known. In the table of Cañas a settlement scheme is proposed, though not enough to speak of urbanism. Nor have studies of defensive systems been realised, except for the so-called enclosed towers, which are located mostly around La Serena and which chronology is entirely Roman. Beyond defense their function could have been military, tied ot the Sertorian War, or related to mining and metallurgy.

Economy

1. Preference for settlements favouring livestock and mining of silver-bearing lead oxide ore; towns concentrate on rivers.
2. Loss of importance in hunting around 4 C. BC, change in preference from mostly cows to a mix of sheep, swine, horses, and chickens (introduced by the Phonecians). Some dogs.
3. Growing of wheat, spelt, or barley; no millet till the Romans. Vines before the Romans and olives after. Flax throughout; agriculture following the fifth century BC, with iron tools and various seeds. Mortar and pestle (barquiform) milling earlier, rotary milling later. Some deforestation over time.
4. Mines rich in silver and lead, but apparently not exploited till the Romans. Also iron, copper and tin earlier. Iron metallurgy begins in Medellin in 4th C. BC.

Material culture

1. influences on pottery are Phoenecian, Celtic, Oretani, and Turdetian. Wholly representative Turduli pottery seems difficult to identify given the limited excavations and data.

Religion

1. Some religious influences from the Phoenicians and a Ataecina cult known from ovicaprids in necropolises; otherwise information is archaeological and prehistoric.

Punic Wars

1. The Turduli likely had cultural interchanges and possibly immigration involving the Phoenicians, citing numismatic similarites. There seem to be Phoenician influences on religion also.
2. The Turduli were likely allied with the Lusitanians who fought with the Romans after the second Punic war
3. The fortifications in Sisapo are likely Roman fortifications to defend against Viriatus
4. The term Turduli is used in inscriptions for several centuries after the Roman conquest, implying an ethnic awarenes. (I presume these inscriptions are in English)[97]. However, Moret suggests the terms are used cuturally rather than ethnically in these inscriptions.[98]

[Footnote 97: Como los emeritenses de L. Antonio Vegeto Túrdulo y Pompeia Cloutinae Turdula y el Tu(rd)ulu vet(eri) ovet(eranus) de Coria. Saquete Chamizo, José Carlos, “L. Antonio…” op. cit.; Moret, Pierre, “¿Dónde estaban…” op. cit.]

Footnote 98: Moret, Pierre, “¿Dónde estaban…” op. cit.

Isomorphyc (talk) 00:45, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Voluminous, impressive work, Isomorphyc. One thing: in #Punic Wars, № 4, re your parenthetical "I presume these inscriptions are in English", I assume you meant to write "Latin" and not "English", yes? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 17:28, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

@I'm so meta even this acronym: Originally yes; then I realised anyone who had read so far deserved a joke. Isomorphyc (talk) 17:35, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

@Isomorphyc: Oh, I see. Sorry to ruin it… :-S  — I.S.M.E.T.A. 17:36, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

:V —JohnC5 18:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

@I'm so meta even this acronym: Not at all-- in seriousness I really enjoyed the article, and I'm glad it came through for you in the summary. Isomorphyc (talk) 17:40, 9 September 2016 (UTC)