Talk:Kinderschänder

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Kinderschänder

Rfv-sense for "child murderer". I've only ever heard this used to mean "child molester", i.e. someone who sexually abuses children, but I'm not a native speaker of German and there could be senses I'm unaware of. Nevertheless, both Duden and German Wiktionary list only the "child molester" sense. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:19, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth: I would actually consider this term a very strict sum-of-parts with schänden (“desecrate, violate, rape”) with the meaning 'child rapist'. You wouldn't apply this term lightly to someone who hasn't conducted strongly sexual acts. Murder just happens to accompany that often. Korn (talk) 23:39, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• The sense was removed on January 17 in this edit, and in any case no citations have been provided, so I'm striking the heading. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 01:03, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

It definitely doesn't mean "murderer". And it's not restricted to "rapist" either, certainly not in the legal sense of "rape" (which, at least by German law, requires penetration). So: Yes, it means "child molester". Pretty good match. Kolmiel (talk) 03:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

RFC discussion: January 2015

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for cleanup (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Kinderschänder

An IP just removed some of the more bizarre wording in this entry, but it still uses an obsolete English word in the definition, and could use some attention from a fluent speaker in general, given the emotionally-charged subject matter.

As "schänden" and "(to) shend" are related and as "schänden" literally means "(to) shend", I guess "shend" resp. "(literally) a person who [...] shends children" should be mentioned. As the word is also explained as "a child abuser", I can't see any problem. -IP, 19:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Shend has three meanings and I don't know which the entry Kinderschänder is referring to. Replace with a common English word; is this a 'child blamer' (sense #2 of shend)? Renard Migrant (talk) 19:54, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

A Kinderschänder is simply a child molester. There is no reason whatsoever to use an obsolete English word just because it's cognate with the German word. That's silly. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:09, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I've cleaned it up now, but it's raised some questions I'm going to bring up at RFV and the Tea room. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:15, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! You've addressed my concerns, and the remaining issue will be dealt with at rfv independently, so I'm going to close out this request. As far as I'm concerned, this is Done. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:33, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

As there are "Grabschänder" (grave desecrator) and "Leichenschänder" (necrophiliac, desecrator of a corpse or of corpses) and as "schän­den" can at least mean "1. to put shame on someone; 2. to desecrate, profane; 3. to sexually abuse someone" the etymology part with "Schänder (“molester”)" it doesn't seem to be better now. Even if it's nowadays simply "Kinderschänder = someone who sexually abuses children = child abuser, child moster, child rapist", historically it could have (also) meant "Kinderschänder = someone who puts shame on children (by sexually abusing them) = child shender" or "Kinderschänder = someone who profanes children, someone who soils the the purity of children, someone who takes the innocence (which can also mean: virginity) of children". For today's meaning it's irrelevant, but for etymology it isn't. Therefore the "molester" part in the etymology should be accompanied by some other nouns or shouldn't be "translated" at all (as all those information should be in the entries Schänder or schänden). -93.196.241.76 23:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

We don't have an entry at Schänden, but when we do, the word shend should only be mentioned in the etymology as a cognate- not used in the definition. It doesn't matter how close it is in range of meaning to schänden, it's not part of English as it's spoken today- you might as well use Latin or Chinese. As far as the choice of molester to gloss Schänder, that's a bit more iffy. In modern English, the more innocuous meanings of molest have fallen out of use because of their association with child molester, so that one could argue that "molest" is a term for "sexual abuse" in current-day English, but that's not an open-and-shut case. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:05, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

In the context of the word Kinderschänder, Schänder means "molester". In other contexts, it has other meanings, but this entry isn't about other contexts. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:22, 4 January 2015 (UTC)