Talk:Jingsha

Pronunciation of a Misspelling

@JeffDoozan Hey, I was checking to make sure AutoDooz was working correctly, and I noticed one thing that I'm not 100% clear about. Here: [1] we see a pronunciation section moved from a position where it applies to "Etymology 1 only" to a position at the top of the entry where it would apply to both etymologies. However, the second etymology is a misspelling. Off the top of my head, I don't know of any misspelling entries on Wiktionary where a pronunciation is given- this would be a first for me, but idk. What do you think? I'm fine with status quo because the misspelling "probably might" be pronounced the same was as the correctly spelled etymology. But not sure exactly if everything is "right". [2] --Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:23, 21 September 2023 (UTC) (Modified)

@Geographyinitiative: Thanks for double checking the bot and bringing this up. Before the bot's changes, there was a L3 "Etymology 1", a L3 "Pronunciation" with L4 "Proper noun" and "Further reading" children, and a L3 "Etymology 2" with L4 "Proper noun" and "See also" children. A single "Pronunciation" section with children sections which doesn't follow WT:ELE, so the bot flags this for cleanup. If the Pronunciation only applies to Etymology 1, it needs to be a L4. If that had been the case, the bot wouldn't have touched anything.

For the cleanup, the bot actually performs three operations, per the changelog:

1. It finds a single L3 ===Pronunciation=== with nested subsections, which should never happen, so it promotes the L4 "Proper noun" and L4 "Further reading" to L3 sections.
2. It re-scans the article and finds a L3 "Etymology 1" followed by a L3 "Pronunciation" and then later a L3 "Etymology 2". This occurs frequently when somebody adds a second etymology and doesn't know or doesn't remember that they now have to move the existing Pronunciation section above the first Etymology section, so the bot is programmed to handle this specific case and moves Pronunciation to the spot that is most likely to be correct.
3. Finally, it re-scans the article again and finds a L3 "Etymology 1", L3 "Proper noun", L3 "Further reading", and L3 "Etymology 2", which is another common error when somebody adds an "Etymology 2" section without remembering that the L3 sections after "Etymology 1" need to be changed to L4 sections, so the bot moves the L3 "Proper noun" and L3 "Further reading" to L4 sections under "Etymology 1"

This is a pretty weird corner case where an uncommon mistake, gets "corrected" to generate two common mistakes which, in turn, get corrected. I'm not sure what the best solution is. If you revert bot's edit and make the Pronunciation a L4, it will leave the page alone. JeffDoozan (talk) 18:21, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

@-sche Unless you have a different opinion, I plan to leave things the way they are per JeffDoozan above. But I wanted to show you this because I don't usually see pronunciations for misspellings. I think it potentially makes sense that this pronunciation would apply to both etymologies equally. Update: a similar scenario is happening with Jin'an and the two etymologies. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:02, 21 September 2023 (UTC) (Modified)

Whoops, sorry, putting the pronunciation under Etymology 1 but forgetting to make it L4 instead of L3 is my error. If we assume someone who spells Jin- as Jing- also things it's pronounced like Jing- then I suppose the current layout is OK, but a conservative approach would be to put the pronunciation at L4 under Etymology 1. In the case of Jin'an I suppose a question is whether it is truly an "alternative form" (using a different pinyin/Chinese syllable, Jin instead of Jing) in which case pronouncing it like Jin is right, or a misspelling (in which case we could be conservative and only apply the pronunciation to ety 1). - -sche (discuss) 22:52, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I will add, though, that while it might be hard to show that any particular case of someone interchanging two syllables in writing lines up with interchanging two syllables in speech (making the entry a {{misconstruction of}}), I have noticed while adding pronunciations to a lot of these words, and verifying them against Youglish and/or other sources whenever possible, that people do mess up and interchange syllables in speech a lot. Often the transcript or on-screen text will say a name has -ng but the person will say /n/ or vice versa, or they'll drop the /-n, -ŋ/ entirely so e.g. /-ɑn/ becomes /-ɑ/ or the /-ɪn/ of an -in name gets interchanged with the /-ə/ of an -e name, or they mess up in even less coherent ways. Next time I run into examples I will mention them here. - -sche (discuss) 13:52, 25 September 2023 (UTC)