Talk:𐬀𐬉𐬱𐬆𐬨𐬀

FWOTD cleanup

@Aryamanarora, JohnC5, I think this entry needs some cleanup (gender, original text of quotation, etc) before it can be featured as FWOTD. And @Jberkel, could I please get an image? Thanks all! —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 16:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: It's been significantly improved. —Aryamanarora ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 02:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora, Jberkel: Why is the quotation not transliterated? Also repinging Jberkel on the assumption that the first one didn't work. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:23, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

svg

Is SVG only OK, or do you need a PNG version as well? – Jberkel (talk) 08:00, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Unrelated, but I can't get the Middle Persian characters (from the etymology section) to display correctly in my browser. What font do you use for those? – Jberkel (talk) 08:08, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Jberkel: Soooo, bad news about that: I do not believe that there is any readily available font covering the Manichaean (Mani) code block. I was honestly hoping someone could create one for us. I would ask @-sche to make one for us, but as seen in the accepted proposal text, the script is quite complex. The font used for the proposal was created by Michael Everson. I wonder whether we can entreat him for a version of his font. —JohnC5 15:11, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Jberkel: Actually, I did find this font. I'm still testing to see whether I can get it to display. —JohnC5 15:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5: Haha, too obscure. Does not work with the linked font. Chrome shows tofu, but Safari seems to performs automatic transliteration (to (xyšm), (xyyšm, /xēšm/). Edit: actually, Safari just doesn't show tofu, no transliteration done. –Jberkel (talk) 21:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Move

@JohnC5 why was the page moved? I'm sure Aeshma is correct in the transliteration, and so is the book Introduction to Avestan. —Aryamanarora ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 01:28, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

This has aēšmā in it. —Aryamanarora ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 01:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora: Sorry for the delay, but I've been trying to confirm this finding. You are correct that etymologically, it should be 𐬀𐬉𐬱𐬨𐬀 (aēšma). However, Kanga has 𐬀𐬉𐬴𐬨𐬀 (aēṣ̌ma), and if we believe sources like The Avestan Digital Archive (search for "Y10.8"), then this does appear to be correct. Introduction to Avestan only mentions aēšəma in §10.1.1 and not aēšma. It does say later in §11.22: "ṣ̌ is originally an Avestan development of the sequence rt under certain accentual conditions; however, later in the transmission and manuscript tradition, ṣ̌ has frequently become confused with š, and at times with š́ as well." This seems to me to be the only explanation here. What do you think? —JohnC5 01:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5: Oh, it appears that the move was right... http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/iran/airan/avesta/yasna/yasnw3/yasnw.htm?yasnw011.htm agrees with you, and I've found them to be very reliable in preserving actual (mis)spellings in old texts. The only way to verify it would be to make sense of the first image in this, which is an original Avestan text. I think you're probably right though. https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/aveol/60 confused me with their nonstandard transliterations. —Aryamanarora ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 01:54, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora: So, I think it makes sense that sources more concerned with the Avestan as a language consider this a scribal error and so just "fix" it, but I think we have to report the scribal error in the absence of the real form. Would you like to add a further note on the subject? —JohnC5 02:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5: I think your note explains it well. —Aryamanarora ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 15:16, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation

@Aryamanarora, JohnC5: Doesn't aē represent a diphthong? Shouldn't the pronunciation be /ae̯ʃma/ or the like? Do we know which syllable had the accent? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Angr: Accord into to Introduction to Avestan, it should be /ai̯ʃma/. —JohnC5 14:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Angr, JohnC5: That makes sense. 𐬬𐬀𐬉𐬨 (vaēm) woul be /vai̯am/ then, right? —Aryamanarora ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 14:21, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora: I don't have Introduction to Avestan in front of me right now, but it was my recollection that a lot of things fell together into just 4 diphthongs total: /ai̯/, /aːi̯/, /au̯/, and /aːu̯/. I'm not sure but I imagine the Proto-Indo-Iranian *wayám may have gotten syncopated just to /vai̯m/ in Avestan, but I'll have to look it up later. —JohnC5 15:31, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora: So yeah, according to §10.2.: "aē is likewise the outcome of the group *aia̯ before a nasal, by way of the possible development > *aiə̯ > *aï > aē". —JohnC5 21:41, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5: Good to know. Avestan is quite an interesting language. It's a lot less regular that Sanskrit. —Aryamanarora ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 22:57, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora: I've only recently gottent into it in earnest, and I'm really liking it. It's funny that, despite having very fine-grained alphabet, Avestan still uses really weird spellings for everything. —JohnC5 23:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)