Talk:堕天使

On the etymology and defintion

@Eirikr 1. Another unattested claim removed. The pronunciations of names in Christianity are closer to Latin than they are Portuguese (Iesu, Mikaeru, etc.), so chances are this one might be a direct calque from Latin. The name of Lucifer seems to come from Portuguese, tho, although Daijirin unsurprisingly got the spelling slightly wrong, not to mention both Daijisen and Daijirin use フェ, which is highly dubious as this is more likely to be a recent combination.

2. "Fallen angel" itself already covers "Lucifer" (like literally stated in the first paragraph of the English Wikipedia article), so that part is redundant at best, immaterial at worst.

3. Lucifer is a proper name, maybe make this one a proper noun with a proper section rather than tag it in in a terribly sloppy way like that. ばかFumiko￥^talk 12:48, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Re: Christianity and Japanese history, read up on it some. Japanese writers first learned of Christian concepts from Portuguese and Spanish missionaries. Many Christian concepts first appear as Japanese terms coined or repurposed either by the missionaries themselves (when they were conversant in Japanese) or by their Japanese audience (when instead they were conversant in either Portuguese or Spanish). Very little in Japanese comes from Latin directly, and those terms that are directly from Latin are later borrowings. Modern JA イエス (Iesu) is a later learned borrowing directly from Latin. This was not the term originally borrowed into Japanese as the translation of the name Jesus -- that was first ゼス (Zesu) from older Portuguese Jesu, later ゼズス (zezusu) from relatively newer Portuguese Jesus. See also ja:w:イエス・キリスト#語義と指示内容, particularly this portion that jives with other dead-tree references I've read in the past:

戦国時代から江戸時代初期にかけてのキリシタンは、ポルトガル語の発音からゼズまたはゼズスと呼んでいた。
From the Sengoku period [1467–1603] through the Edo period [1603-1868], Christians in Japan called Jesus either Zesu or Zezusu based on the Portuguese pronunciation.

We know from the history of the Portuguese language that Portuguese writers were actively borrowing terms from Latin and Greek, which gives rise to Portuguese Jesus, eventually replacing older Portuguese Jesu. We also know from historical works like this Portuguese grammar from 1540 that the term Jesu was still in (at least some) currency right around the time of European contact in Japan, by the Portuguese in 1542, with trade and more extensive cultural contacts ramping up from 1543 (see Nanban trade).

In short, the origins of Japanese イエス (Iesu) in the Latin language do not have any direct bearing on the origins of Japanese 堕天使, and instead the history of what “Jesus” was called in Japanese, tracing back to older Portuguese Jesu, reinforces the likelihood that Japanese 堕天使 is a calque from Portuguese, not Latin. Given the history of Nanban trade and cultural exchange, particularly the activities of Spanish missionaries in Japan, we also cannot currently rule out Spanish as a likely calque source, and should thus include that as a possibility.

Fallen angel in English is not a proper noun, but rather a descriptor that can be used to refer generally to a member of class of nouns (any of those angels that have fallen from grace) or specifically to a proper noun (Lucifer, etc. as the chief of those angels). The Japanese term appears to be similar.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:27, 28 November 2017 (UTC)