Talk:十手

Reading

To anyone so interested:

There is no evidence I can find in the Japanese web for anything spelled 十手 and read as jutte with a "U", that is somehow distinct from 十手 when read as jitte with an "I". There are even web pages dedicated to making the point that jutte is an incorrect reading, and that it should be read instead as jitte.

There does appear to be at least one different type of jitte in addition to the basic truncheon design, but this is given a specific name (apparently 機械十手 kikai jitte, or マロホシ marohoshi, as noted towards the bottom of ja:w:十手), and is not just called a jitte.

If anyone can find lexicographically significant and citable information stating otherwise, please post here. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:41, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

• • It does not matter what some "web pages" or Wikipedia might say, what matters are facts. Wikipedia is not always right, until very recently the English Wikipedia article currently titled "Jitte" was for many years titled "Jutte" and undoubtedly it will once again be renamed "Jutte". There are two completely different weapons with similar names, many people who have not properly researched the subject are unaware of this fact. While it is true that the truncheon type weapon has been called by both names (jutte and jitte), the other hand held spear type weapon has only been called by one name (jitte), the fact that so many people are not aware that there is a weapon like this is not unusual, it would take someone who has done a bit of research to know about the existence and histories etc of both weapons. Unfortunately many people who really have no knowledge of the subject think they are well informed when they make pronouncements about what these weapons should be called. Just because someone is Japanese or a source is from Japan does not automatically mean that they have sufficient knowledge on the subject of Japanese hand held weapons to properly name them. If you go back to the source of the images used in both the English and the Japanese Wikipedia (Wikimedia commons) you will see that the images are described in a completely different manner. If you read the references I am posting you will understand the difference between a "jitte" and a "jutte and please note that the weapon known as a "marohoshi" is another completely different form, also do a search for juttejutsu and juttejitsu and you will find more results than if you search for jittejutsu or jittejitsu. It us quite understandable why there is a certain amount of confusion regarding the proper naming of certain obscure weapons but that is no excuse for continuing to do so when presented with the proper research.

Why a jutte is called "jutte" and not "jitte". Taiho-Jutsu: Law and Order in the Age of the Samurai By Don Cunningham. Page 72. [1]

The difference between a "jitte" and a "jutte". Classical Weaponry of Japan: Special Weapons and Tactics of the Martial Arts By Serge Mol. Page 36.[2]

Jutte: Japanese Power of Ten Hands Weapon, George Kirby (Author), Mike Lee (Author), 1987. [3]

Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 02:12, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

jutte seems to be a variant, not-as-common reading, with the same meaning as jitte ([4][5][6][7][8]). Wyang (talk) 02:26, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

• @Samuraiantiqueworld Your sources are potentially useful background for an English term jutte. However, inasmuch as these sources are in English, they are not of any use as background for the Japanese term 十手 of either reading, jitte or jutte. I noticed a likely mistake in the romaji renderings of one term in [9] (tekkan ostensibly using the character 剣 (“sword”), which would be ken, not kan), raising questions about the general accuracy of romanized words and the readings purportedly pointed to thereby.

Note again that this whole thread is in reference to the Japanese term 十手 as used in Japanese. English-language references are almost uniformly not useful sources for this. We are interested in establishing the lexicographical background of this term, in Japanese. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:39, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

• @Wyang JMdict and Romaji Desu have been unreliable in the past, so I tend to take findings there with a grain of salt. The Kotonoha page is an example of numerous pages I've run across that use this word as quiz material, given that its reading is unintuitive from the kanji, and that the word isn't commonly known anymore. The two blog entries were quite interesting; thank you for those.

All that said, I'll do some digging around in Google Books and see if this reading shows up in enough publications (in ways that meet WT:CFI) to merit inclusion. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:39, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

• Upon further research, the only sources I can find that list any jutte reading are either monolingual English texts or bilingual Japanese-English dictionaries. I cannot find any monolingual Japanese sources that do anything more than mention jutte as an incorrect reading. I will add a usage note to the entry to this effect. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:47, 7 January 2016 (UTC)