Talk:उसांस

Misspelling

@Inqilābī, Bhagadatta This is a misspelling of उसाँस. It isn't pronounced as उसान्स (usāns) in Hindi, it is only उसाँस. Even the transliteration here says usāns, which is wrong, so I added a manual transliteration. Thanks. शशकः 03:27, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: The transliteration and pronunciation used to be displayed correctly until recently when some changes were made. I also noticed this at बाँस (bā̃s). @AryamanA any clue what's going on?

P.S. this is not a misspelling, it's an alternative spelling; at least that's how Wiktionary treats these variations... -- Bhagadatta^(talk) 03:43, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Bhagadatta: Actually, I think that this is a kind of a "shortcut misspelling". People usually write like this as a shortcut - just a dot instead of a candrabindu. This is common in typing also, particularly, who type Latin script to Devanagari of Google Indic Keyboard which doesn't use IAST. So, I think we should keep it as a misspelling or even delete it because this is with every word using अनुनासिक. Examples - चाँद - चांद, हाँ - हां, वहाँ, यहाँ, जहाँ, and countless others. शशकः 03:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: Even if it is a misspelling, it won't be deleted. Wiktionary describes language as it is, it does not prescribe by suggesting the user to use one word/form over the other. My only issue is with the transliteration and pronunciation of terms like these as it should be ā̃s instead of āns at pages like उसाँस (usā̃s) and बाँस (bā̃s) and the pronunciation should likewise reflect nasalization. Calling in @Atitarev, Benwing2. -- Bhagadatta^(talk) 04:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev, AryamanA, Benwing2, Bhagadatta: : Any replies? शशकः 16:33, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: Yes, the transliteration of उसांस should be "usā̃s". बांह (bā̃h) and बाँह (bā̃h) are currently transliterated as "bā̃h" with "ā̃", so should उसांस (usāns) and उसाँस (usā̃s). For technical questions, User:Benwing2 and User:AryamanA would be able to respond and fix. I am not sure, which change in Module:hi-translit caused this.

You can always add a new (failed) test case to Module:hi-translit/testcases, so that this can be addressed eventually (there are a few old unresolved cases though).

As for the entry, valid terms should be kept. It's easy to verify that उसांस (usāns) exists. And it seems that it is an alternative form, not a misspelling. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:40, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: No problem, adding manual transliteration isn't very difficult or anything. शशकः 02:52, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: The manual transliteration should be discouraged, unless it's definitely impossible to automate, like in component words where shwa-dropping is unpredictable. उसाँस/उसांस is an easy case, please have patience. @AryamanA, Benwing2 will be able to fix it, just give it some time. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:01, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: I have added the new case in Module:hi-translit/testcases to make sure it's not forgotten. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:03, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Thanks for that! Manual transliteration transliteration is just a solution for now until it is corrected... शशकः 03:07, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev (e/c) When User:AryamanA or User:Bhagadatta has a chance, hopefully they can weigh in. I can fix the module to display chandrabindu and anusvara before स as a tilde but I want to make sure it's correct. Are there cases where anusvara occurs before स and is pronounced as n or is it always nasalization? Benwing2 (talk) 03:08, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: By the way, you can ping me on User:Sabdasodhaka (my transliterated name, without any complex accents) if you find it simpler. शशकः 03:10, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: It's fine. I see you signature and copy. You might want to modify your signature in Preferences/User profile, if you want your signature to include Roman letters, so that people remember how to say it. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:17, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: This is a bit complex. The word संस्कृत is pronounced as *सन्सक्रित् (sanskrit) in Hindi but साँस or सांस is साँस only. Before स, अं = अन् but अँ = अँ (a curly line). I think it is better if ं before sa is n and ँ is a curly line. So साँस is automatically sā̃s and संसार is sansār. शशकः 03:28, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I have reset my signature, so it is easier to copy. I don't have to do anything with how people say it. -- शब्दशोधक (talk) 03:36, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I agree with शब्दशोधक, an anusvara before स is pronounced -ns- in words where the anusvara spelling is original - for instance loanwords from English and Sanskrit: चांसलर (cānslar), हंस (hans) etc. But there is nasalization where the anusvara spelling is an alternative. So my suggestion would be to only fix the translit of the chandrabindu and make it show a tilde. The alt forms can have manual translit. Ditto for the pronunciation. Or better yet, an additional parameter can be manually added to {{hi-IPA}}, just like how it's done at उसाँस (usā̃s), in which case the module requires no edits. -- Bhagadatta^(talk) 04:00, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2 I see that it's a bit complex that I first thought. I will remove the test cases, if they are not valid. I will just wait for the confirmation उसांस requires a manual translit. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:15, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Atitarev, Bhagadatta: : Same is the case with आँत (ā̃t). The main entry was आंत (ānt) before, which I corrected. Again, I say that it is the best if the transliteration is simple and straightforward. ं = n (before sa and the तवर्ग (tavarga)) and ँ = equals ṁ(which I prefer) or a curly line (as it is at Wiktionary). Madhav told me that ṁ might be confusing and I agree but ṁ is at least better than n in आँत (āṁt) as McGregor says. Check the transliteration here. See also हँसना and हँसी, all these transliterations are wrong. I hope all these mistakes can be rectified. Thanks and regards -- शब्दशोधक (talk) 12:25, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Atitarev, Bhagadatta: : Has this error been resolved? -- शब्दशोधक (talk) 13:15, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: I've posted all my thoughts here. The ball isn't in my court. -- Bhagadatta^(talk) 13:24, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: I am not sure I can help either and if it is an error or it requires a manual translit. Let's wait for @Benwing2, AryamanA: to respond. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:07, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Atitarev, Bhagadatta: So, ं != ँ preceding स/श/ष (where it's n vs. nasalisation)/व (where it's m vs. nasalisation). I have tried to handle this in the module. Some entries will still need manual handling, because of the variants which substitute anusvara for chandrabindu. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 21:20, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA, Benwing2, Bhagadatta: Aha, thanks. So, उसाँस (usā̃s) is now correctly transliterated as "usā̃s" but उसांस (usāns) requires manual translit/respelling as a form of उसाँस? So, the default transliteration "usāns" is correct for "उसांस" since the module doesn't know it's an alt form. Is that right?

Do you think it's a good idea to add a possibility to respell words in Module:hi-translit/testcases and Module:hi-IPA/testcases (if it's not there already), similar to Module:ru-pron/testcases? Please see the case for "Зимба́бве (respelled Зимба́бвэ)". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:42, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA, Atitarev: : Thanks a lot for correcting this. This is absolutely what was needed! Words like आंशिक (āñśik) and बाँस (bā̃s) now transliterated correctly. But something still needs to be done at आँत (ā̃t). That is same as this one - ँ = curly line above the vowel, ं = n before त, थ, द, ध. I hope it is not wrong or block evasion, replying to talk pages from an alternative account while I am in a block. I won't edit any page. Regards -- शब्दशोधक (talk) 05:06, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Yes, exactly correct. I'm not sure if respelling is super necessary on the module now; at this point, I think our only issue that remains is schwas, which have to be handled manually. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 23:50, 28 November 2020 (UTC)