Talk:یلدا

There has been some recent editing of the page by people who are not logged in, one of whom also may have edited the 'Yalda' page on Wikipedia (link). Firstly, an alternative etymology was provided for 'Yalda' ('from Persian یلیدن (yalidan)') and the definition 'Mithra's birth or deliverance from the rock'. Another editor deleted that but then added that یلدا is an 'archaic: Persian Christian/Eastern Church name for Christmas, in the early church celebrated on the winter solstice'. I could not see in the sources provided an explicit mention of یلدا as a Persian word meaning 'Christmas' in the early church, though one source mentions that the festival is 'additionally connected with Christianity'. Therefore I have reverted to the last version by User:ZxxZxxZ. Perhaps there is some information from the deleted content that needs to be re-added? Presumably an early world for 'Christmas' would be Middle Persian in any case? Kaixinguo (talk) 22:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

On the one hand you have sources that -- minimally should raise a red flag telling you that the "ancient ... Mithra's birth or deliverance from the rock" explanation is not credible -- and then when someone fixes it *with* citations, you revert to a version with *no* sources (leave alone credible ones) because the change was by an anon. Is there some new rule that makes logged-in garbage without sources more credible than a reliable source?

To your points:

1. First, it's not an alternative etymology. Its the same etymology. Its still borrowed from Syriac, but restricted to the point of loan (loanwords are loanwords; their etymologies don't go back to the dawn of time).
2. Second, the definition "Mithra's birth or deliverance from the rock" is internet-era nonsense, promoted (created?) by a self-published esotericist, and has nothing to do with anything. Iranian Mithra is not born of a Rock. *ROMAN* Mithras is born of a rock. (https://www.google.de/search?q=petra+genetrix link]) That self-published esotericist took the Roman evidence and transported it to Iran, where it does not belong.
3. No, not "though one source mentions". That source is the Encylopedia Iranica, it isn't any odd source. AND it does NOT mention the nonsense you reverted to. That source DOES say "Islamic era" (so, not "ancient"). That source does NOT mention "Mithra/birth/rock". That source DOES say "longest and darkest night of the year". It DOES say "additionally connected to Christianity". Yes, *ADDITIONALLY* because the Iranian festival of Shab-e Chelleh has nothing ORIGINALLY to do with Christianity. It was *additionally* connected to Christianity trough the name Yalda.
4. No there is nothing that needs to be readded. Yalda has nothing to do with "Mithra ('s birth)", unless you include what a neo-Mithraic "guru" is colporting on the Internet (yes, there is really such a person, and yes, he is self-published, and yes, he made it up. He added two different (obsolete) theories and came up with his own idea).
5. No, an "early word" for Christmas would not be "Middle Persian". #1) "Islamic era" is not "Middle Persian". #2) Technical terms remain technical terms. Technical terms (Amen, Halleleuia, Hanukha, Allah,...) do not become native words. In this case a technical term was readopted as the *NAME* of a *native* festival by virtue of both occurring on the same day. As the newer name for an older festival, that is then a loan word, but as I said ... Islamic era.

Reverted since "Mithra's birth or deliverance from the rock" definition was without any merit whatsoever, and totally without sources. Of course, if you can come up with a *reliable* source for that internet-era fantasy, then of course, it could well be added as an additional definition.

You want to bitch about the etymology? Fine. Go find one. I have Horn, NpE in my hands right now, what do you have? -- 95.116.181.209 14:24, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I've sent this to the Etymology scriptorium so it can be discussed there. As to the parts of this discussion I know something about: yes, the whole Mithra thing looks like nonsense, and yes, it's plausible that a Christian term would be borrowed from Syriac. However, there's nothing wrong with giving etymology further back than the loan: the majority of English is loanwords, and we normally don't stop with "From Old French" or the like. As long as it's of interest and it's not too long or complex, we include that stuff. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:13, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Re: etymology... From the first source cited on the Citations tab:

• "In Islamic Persia, the night of the winter solstice (the last night of autumn) was known under its Syriac name of Šab-e Yaldā (the night of nativity)"
• "Being the longest and the darkest night of the year, additionally connected with Christianity, Šab-e Yaldā usually has negative connotations in Persian poetry".

For Syriac Yalda = nativity/Christmas:

• take your pick.
• Like this one (first hit, was for the fa term): "Yalda -- the longest night of winter; from Syr. Yalda "Christmas". This word corresponds to Arab. ___ Milād and is derived from the same Semitic root YLD (or WLD) -- to give birth or to be born."

-- 95.116.181.209 17:48, 27 November 2014 (UTC)