Talk:яичница

Not correct pronunciation in the recorded audiofile

The person mispronounces the word, it's not / jiˈit͡ɕnʲitsə/ but / jiˈiʂnʲitsə/ (an exception). --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Note that so-called "Moscow" pronunciation /jɪˈɪʂnʲɪtsə/ is general and common and so-called "Saint Petersburg" pronunciation /ɪˈitɕnʲɪtsə/ is now uncommon. (Moscow accent can also refer to some non-standard accents of Moscow). The audio recording is for a rarer Saint Petersburg pronunciation. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:23, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

IPA

@Wikitiki89 Where did you get this from: IPA^(key): /(j)ɪˈ(j)ɪʂnʲɪtsə/, /(j)ɪˈ(j)itɕnʲɪtsə/?

"и" is never pronounced as /jɪ/ after vowels , it's Ukrainian or non-standard accent, initial "я" never loses /j/ but can lose in unstressed positions after vowels - заяц IPA^(key): /ˈza(j)ɪt͡s/. This is quite consistent. I'll have to remove your variants. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:09, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

It may be "non-standard", but it is very common if you listen carefully to Russian speech. Ukrainian has nothing to do with anything, most of the Russian I hear is Moskovian. If you want to mark them as colloquial, go ahead. I'd consider it no different from dropping the /t/ in смотреть or dropping the /d/ in будешь. --WikiTiki89 03:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

There's no problem with providing non-standard pronunciation Go ahead and add below as "non-standard", no need to mix with the standard pronounciation. Moscow is full of migrants from anywhere. It's just not many entries show non-standard accents, like "г" pronounced as /ɦ/, etc. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:36, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

List to this YouTube video starting at 0:25 until you here him say it. --WikiTiki89 03:25, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Will listen later, thanks. I'd stick to standard and mark non-standard explicitly. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:36, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I have rethought my position and decided that it is way too common to be called non-standard. The /j/ is very frequently dropped in fast speech, whether formal or informal, while kept in well-enunciated speech. I think the most common condition for the dropping is if it is preceded a word ending a stressed vowel. Try saying "моя яичница" to yourself. --WikiTiki89 03:42, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I see, that's conditional though (and only conditional), which will open a can of worms. E.g. "бог" in "бог даст" бог is voiced and pronounced /boɦ/. Dropping of initial /j/ here is the same as in заяц. /j/ is usually lost between vowels - прое́кт ([проэ́кт]). --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:52, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Well more like /boɣ/, unless you're Ukrainian. But the difference is that "бог" is voiced like that only when followed by a voiced consonant, whereas the /j/ in яичница can be dropped in pretty much any case, but is almost always dropped when preceded by a stressed vowel. I have the impression that it is dropped more often than not, but I have no statistics to back that up. (For прое́кт, the case is a bit different, it's not phonological but phonemic, for example you would never pronounce "дое́ст" as "доэ́ст".) --WikiTiki89 04:00, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh yes, sorry. The j-dropping is not consistent with /e/ but it's more consistent with cognates of /i/, and "йи" after vowels is only used in loanwords. (/boɦ/ and /boɣ/ are in fact acceptable variants, the word can be said to be pronounced "по-украински"). If you use /ɦ/ and /ɣ/ in most cases, both are considered non-standard, South Russian, Ukrainian or Belarusian. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:10, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I've never heard [ɦ] in Russian except by Ukrainians. The voiced counterpart of /x/ is /ɣ/ (/ɦ/ is the voiced counterpart of /h/). It is, as far as I know, only in Ukraine that /ɣ/ is pronounced deeper in the throat as [ɦ] (the most common) or [ʕ] (as I've read somewhere), but even in parts of Ukraine it is pronounced [ɣ], as I've read). The voicing of /x/ in Russian almost always results in [ɣ].

Another thing is that dropping the presence or absence of /j/ before and after /i/ is always a tricky subject, for example the endings of English mania and Russian мания (manija) are pronounced exactly the same, but in Russian the /j/ is usually transcribed, while in English it usually isn't. --WikiTiki89 04:24, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The drop of j in front of ə is optional. In slow and accurate speech, it's /ˈmanʲɪjə/, not /ˈmanʲɪə/. Saying /ˈzajɪt͡s/ is clearly regional, not standard. I think /j/ is preserved at заяц for consistency with the spelling, some people say /ˈzajat͡s/ in the south. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:30, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

My point is that it is extremely difficult to tell the difference between [ˈmanʲɪjə] and [ˈmanʲɪə] and between [ˈzajɪt͡s] and [ˈza.ɪt͡s], which is why such cases are often confused in all languages. That's why I think we should just transcribe them as [(j)]. --WikiTiki89 04:37, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I understand your point but 1) Initial "е", "я" (obviously ё, ю) ALWAYS retain /j/, unless they follow a word ending in a vowel (we currently don't cater for positional or conditional pronunciation). 2) Adding a /j/ in front of и after vowels is not standard Russian accent. The word заяц is different, it's influenced by the spelling, so /(j)/ is okey here (заяц) but not at яичница, аист, Каир, Заир. Adding /j/ would make your speech accented. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:53, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

You say "ALWAYS", but I disagree. I'll try to find more YouTube videos or something. --WikiTiki89 04:59, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, ALWAYS for words like яичница, Европа, ягуар, енот, язык, еда, standard Russian, of course.

Both /ɦ/ and /ɣ/ are used in regional, dialectal or non-standard Russian despite what Wikipedia says. Personal experience, I lived in Kharkiv, Ukraine, Sochi, Krasnodar, Rostov-on-Don, Belgorod - regions with variety of non-standard accents. Ukrainians quickly learn Russian but don't lose /ɦ/ quickly. It doesn't strike anyone as foreign or too different from /ɣ/ since long ago. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:14, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

That's exactly what I'm saying. Ukrainians learning Russian are still Ukrainians. A Russian from Moscow, for example would never say [boɦ] даст. --WikiTiki89 05:22, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

But I'm not suggesting to transliterate г as /h/ or use /ɣ/ in IPA as an alternative. To be exact, I would use /ɣ/ in the "бог даст" example. (I made a mistake before when describing "бог даст" but /ɦ/ and /ɣ/ are indeed used in regional Russian).--Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:29, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's all I wanted to clarify. --WikiTiki89 05:45, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I found a quote in Google books (here) that explains why we're having this problem: москвичи говорят "иишница" (яичница). Since my family and practically everyone I know is from Moscow and you're from the South, this explains a lot. --WikiTiki89 23:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, a good quote, I'm convinced. I'm okey with the alternative j-less pronunciation here and её now. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Manual transliteration

@Wikitiki89 and @CodeCat Re: edit summary on (tr=jaíšnica, jaíčnica) "@CodeCat, let Anatoli have his way until the discussion is settled, edit wars are useless". People with the same views may eventually manage to squeeze out these pesky native speakers with their ideas and let Lua do all transliteration, Mzajac will help you get rid of annoying word stresses he wanted to get rid of. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:29, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

What I meant by the edit summary is that we should finish the discussion and get some consensus instead of just edit warring. So far the common practice is in line with "jaíšnica, jaíčnica", and an edit war isn't going to change anyone's opinions. I did not mean that we are conspiring against you or anything. (Also, don't forget that I am also a native speaker and speak without an accent, despite my numerous spelling mistakes when I write.) --WikiTiki89 05:44, 9 December 2013 (UTC)