Talk:жвачка
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Atitarev in topic Epenthetic (е)
Epenthetic (е)
[edit]@Tropylium, Atitarev, Fay Freak I'm pretty sure I often pronounce chewing gum as IPA(key): [ʐɨˈvat͡ɕkə] or even IPA(key): [ʐəˈvat͡ɕkə], and looking online it seems this is a common pronunciation, so I think we should give it. However, I'm not sure if it's widespread for the biological sense as well, and I don't know whether this is a phonological feature (i.e. if жв- can always be realised with an inserted schwa) or if it's purely related to the etymology (influence from жевать). What are your thoughts? (also, please do ping other Russian editors that I have missed that might be interested) Thadh (talk) 23:32, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Thadh: I have never heard [ˈʐvat͡ɕkə], and hardly even realized that жва́чка (žváčka) is supposedly the word for chewing gum in Russian. The most common pronunciation I have heard is [ʐuˈvat͡ɕkə], as if жува́чка (žuváčka) (unstressed у (u) is generally not reduced in my accent or by far not as often as claimed by Wiktionary), followed by [ʐəˈvat͡ɕkə] and sometimes in careful speech [ˈʐɛvat͡ɕkə], implying жева́чка (ževáčka). Russian Wiktionary has жева́чка (ževáčka) labelled as colloquial and жува́чка (žuváčka) as childish, which seems baseless from my end: probably these distinctions do not reach out to Central Asian dialects of Russia. I guess chewing gums were produced and distributed separately across the Soviet republics? Fay Freak (talk) 23:44, 13 November 2021 (UTC) (corrected stress 02:07, 16 November 2021 (UTC))
- Good thing you gave that link, because while searching for the pronunciation, I found [1], which dismisses жевачка as a valid spelling. Also, I was a little surprised to find the "colloquial" lable here.
- I personally have heard жвачка, I'm pretty sure that pronunciation is common is Soviet films, and I also think it's pretty common for the biological sense (I'm inclined to use it myself), but I find that difficult to analyse due to it being a pretty rare subject to talk about.
- I haven't heard жувачка though, but maybe that's due to me not having been in Russia much, I don't know what the natural distributions are. Thadh (talk) 23:57, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
- IPA(key): [ʐʊˈvat͡ɕkə] is indeed childish (in my opinion) or nonstandard/rural but it is rather common. We don't cater for yakanie accents - e.g. жəва́чка, which is just a variant of IPA(key): [ʐɨˈvat͡ɕkə]. жва́чка is usually considered more standard but жева́чка is an acceptable alternative. @Fay Freak, you put a few wrong stresses above. It's always the 2nd syllable stressed. (atitarev) --101.176.14.82 00:41, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- Question is, are all these forms only used for the sense of "chewing gum", and if not, is this realisation due to the consonant cluster or due to analogy? Thadh (talk) 07:35, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- I think so, I only referred to that sense. The few times I read about the ruminant stomach in Russian it was жва́чка (žváčka). But I really don’t know how or how much peasants talk about that thing. We would need large-scale agriculturists and veterinaries. Fay Freak (talk) 02:12, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- There is also a word жвак (žvak, “larch resin used as a cleanser”) from жва́кать (žvákatʹ) for which жва́чка (žváčka) is a synonym. When I was at school I always wondered why жва́чка (žváčka) (without "е") even exists because I was unfamiliar with "жвак". Apparently I wasn't the only one who wondered. It's easier to associate жева́чка (ževáčka) with жева́ть (ževátʹ) - a common word for "chew", rather than with жвак (žvak) (a much less common word), so "жева́чка" is more common, easier to pronounce than "жва́чка" but some people still prefer "жва́чка" only because it's considered more "standard". It's now standard жева́чка (ževáčka) for "chewing gum" and жва́чка (žváčka) is colloquial for that sense (according to some dictionaries). I don't agree with [2]. "жева́чка" is included in "Большой толковый словарь русского языка - С. А. Кузнецов." and is considered colloquial. Although it's confusing, you can consider both as variants as valid. Dictionaries call them "colloquial" (both "жева́чка" and "жва́чка") because the full standard term for "chewing gum" is жева́тельная рези́нка (ževátelʹnaja rezínka) (only with "е"). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:46, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
- What about marking жевачка as
{{lb|ru|sometimes|_|proscribed}}{{alternative spelling of|ru|жва́чка||chewing gum}}? That way we don't have to have duplicate entries and we can host all the pronunciation information here (probably under a separate header, so Pronunciation 1 and Pronunciation 2). Thadh (talk) 22:45, 22 November 2021 (UTC)- Probably fine. Pls also check Case Insensitive Google Ngram Viewer - жевачка/жвачка. жвачка is winning. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:47, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- What about marking жевачка as
- There is also a word жвак (žvak, “larch resin used as a cleanser”) from жва́кать (žvákatʹ) for which жва́чка (žváčka) is a synonym. When I was at school I always wondered why жва́чка (žváčka) (without "е") even exists because I was unfamiliar with "жвак". Apparently I wasn't the only one who wondered. It's easier to associate жева́чка (ževáčka) with жева́ть (ževátʹ) - a common word for "chew", rather than with жвак (žvak) (a much less common word), so "жева́чка" is more common, easier to pronounce than "жва́чка" but some people still prefer "жва́чка" only because it's considered more "standard". It's now standard жева́чка (ževáčka) for "chewing gum" and жва́чка (žváčka) is colloquial for that sense (according to some dictionaries). I don't agree with [2]. "жева́чка" is included in "Большой толковый словарь русского языка - С. А. Кузнецов." and is considered colloquial. Although it's confusing, you can consider both as variants as valid. Dictionaries call them "colloquial" (both "жева́чка" and "жва́чка") because the full standard term for "chewing gum" is жева́тельная рези́нка (ževátelʹnaja rezínka) (only with "е"). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:46, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
- I think so, I only referred to that sense. The few times I read about the ruminant stomach in Russian it was жва́чка (žváčka). But I really don’t know how or how much peasants talk about that thing. We would need large-scale agriculturists and veterinaries. Fay Freak (talk) 02:12, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Question is, are all these forms only used for the sense of "chewing gum", and if not, is this realisation due to the consonant cluster or due to analogy? Thadh (talk) 07:35, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- IPA(key): [ʐʊˈvat͡ɕkə] is indeed childish (in my opinion) or nonstandard/rural but it is rather common. We don't cater for yakanie accents - e.g. жəва́чка, which is just a variant of IPA(key): [ʐɨˈvat͡ɕkə]. жва́чка is usually considered more standard but жева́чка is an acceptable alternative. @Fay Freak, you put a few wrong stresses above. It's always the 2nd syllable stressed. (atitarev) --101.176.14.82 00:41, 15 November 2021 (UTC)