Talk:гнѣзда

Dictionaries

@Theknightwho: Could you tell me a couple of similar dictionaries? Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 13:48, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gnosandes See гнѣ̈здышко (gnjǒ́zdyško) here: http://runeberg.org/rusv1896/0142.html. Theknightwho (talk) 13:53, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: But this is a Russian-Swedish dictionary. And this was done, apparently, in order for the Swedes to learn Russian. I would like to see some dictionary after 1900, when the spelling was already more or less established. Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 14:00, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gnosandes I'm not interested in arguing with someone who deletes things because they "doubt they ever existed", and then keeps arguing even when presented with evidence to the contrary. Pinging @Atitarev @Benwing2. This is not new, either - it's been mentioned on WT:Russian transliteration for a long time. Theknightwho (talk) 14:02, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Of course, because there are no links to sources. I doubted it, but I got them from you. I'm not arguing, but I'm saying that this is a dictionary for foreigners or something similar. In addition, I asked you to provide a couple of dictionaries (or 3 dictionaries), you gave me only one dictionary. Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 14:09, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gnosandes I need to track down the source properly, but this is apparently from the third edition of «w:ru:Толковый словарь живого великорусского языка» from 1903. See lines 3 and 4. Theknightwho (talk) 14:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Thank you, but could you please indicate the source for these forms? I did it exactly the same way admin Thadh once did it for me. See the comment on his first edit. Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 14:34, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gnosandes: Other than ѣ̈ it's completely regular, because ѣ́ would fall in the same places. It's the same as е́ versus ё. Theknightwho (talk) 14:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: As far as I know, in Russian ё is not optional. Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 14:50, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gnosandes Why do you think ѣ̈ (jǒ) is different? Theknightwho (talk) 15:01, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: I do not think so. I was curious about this, in 2018 my friend gave me a source in which it was written that the Russian House of Romanov did not pronounce this ѣ~ѣ̈ as ʲɛ~ʲɔ. They pronounced ѣ~ѣ̈ very archaically when it was still a diphthong. I'll try to find out more about this source. Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 15:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gnosandes Thanks. I also think we should probably include it in the page title, for consistency with ё (jo). It seems to be extremely rare, though I have just found another example: лѣса́ (lěsá) / лѣ̈сы (ljǒ́sy). Theknightwho (talk) 15:24, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: I do not know, but I know that you pinged very smart people above, let them deal with it. Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 15:28, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho, @Gnosandes: I don't remember who first offered to use ѣ̈ (jǒ). It may be @Wikitiki89 or @Benwing2. It has been adopted at Wiktionary, even if it was rarely used for convenience and for the lack of anything else.

I softened my position on not using ѣ̈ (jǒ) in the Russian headword for pre-1918 spellings but like @Fay Freak on my talk page, I can see pluses and minuses of that approach. @Benwing2: what do you think?

I also think that there is a potential candidate for ея́ (jejá) -> ея̈ (jejǫ́) (with diaeresis) to be read as её (jejó) when it is pronounced so but there were two possible readings. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev I remember making a change awhile ago to remove the special-casing in the declension and conjugation modules that generated pre-reform links without ё. Now the links contain ё so I think we should include them, and logically this means also including ѣ̈ (jǒ). As long as we have soft redirects like we do for ё, this should be fine. I haven't encountered things like ея̈ (jejǫ́) before but this is a logical extension. Benwing2 (talk) 23:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev @Benwing2 I should note that ея̈ (jejǫ́) appears in a 1948 dictionary ([1]). I suspect the original source was «Толковый словарь живого великорусского языка». Given the consensus is generally in favour, I have excluded these from diacritic removal. Theknightwho (talk) 16:55, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Thanks! I've made the entry for ея̈ (jejǫ́). ея́ (jejá) will probably become both an entry and a soft redirect to it. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:01, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev Thanks! Page 49 of «Русскій языкъ въ культурно-историческомъ измѣреніи» has a use right at the top of the page, but it also gives the example of archaic дяснá (djasná) having the plural дя̈сны (djǫ́sny). Modern spellings are десна́ (desná) and дёсны (djósny). Theknightwho (talk) 23:23, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh, also тря̈съ (trjǫs) as a variant of трясъ (trjas). Theknightwho (talk) 23:36, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Yep. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho, @Benwing2: Thanks, I would think that дяснá (djasná) is an example of я́канье (jákanʹje), which is now standard Belarusian.

Yes, there were also, in the same document: archaic тря̈съ (trjǫs), modern тряс (trjas) or pre-reform тря́съ (trjás).

Also, verbs like запря́чь (zaprjáčʹ) (the stem -прячь (-prjačʹ)) had an old form запря̈гъ (zaprjǫ́g) instead of запря́г (zaprjág)/запря́гъ (zaprjág) Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: See https://istina.msu.ru/publications/article/27486902/ page 262, volume 2 Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 23:48, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gnosandes Thanks. Theknightwho (talk) 00:01, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: He discusses Itkin's law:

In the wordform of the (historical) accent paradigm b, where ѣ (and я = ѧ) is followed by a combination of consonants with the participation of two voiced ± sonorant or arbitrary single + sonorant (including the groups *-dl- and *-tl- to be further simplified into -л-), this ѣ (and я), contrary to the general rule about its ё-resistance, also passes into [ʲo], i.e. into ѣ̈ (and я̈ [= ѧ̈]). Gnosandes ❀ (talk) 00:06, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Benwing2 It's been bugging me a little since we made the change, but I was thinking we should probably change the transliterations of ѣ̈ and я̈ to indicate that they're different, in a similar way we do for ѣ (jě). That paper on Itkin's law transliterates both on page 271 (where it gives a short summary of the article in English), and uses ѣ̈ (jǒ) and я̈ (ǫ̈). I'm not sure I agree with the latter, which is influenced by Old Church Slavonic ѧ (ę), but it would make a lot of sense to use ѣ̈ (jǒ) (with and without a stress accent, in the same way as we do for ё (jo)). Theknightwho (talk) 15:52, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev What do you think Anatoli? User:Theknightwho I am fine with jǒ if you prefer that. Benwing2 (talk) 21:06, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Benwing2, @Theknightwho. Sorry for not responding earlier, I am back from a two week leave - went skiing in Mount Hotham and Falls Creek (Victoria, Australia).

I don't have a strong opinion on this. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:48, 16 July 2023 (UTC)