Talk:Іван

@Atitarev My script to convert to automatic declensions didn't do this one because of loc sg Іва́ну. I assume this should be Іва́не? Likewise for Ігна́т. Benwing2 (talk) 07:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: This article] in (Taraškievica) specifically addresses locatives and insists on "пры Іва́ну" but "пры Іва́не" is very common.

I think it should be both, also Пятру́ and Пятры́. "-у" signals that it is masculine person. Іва́не and Пятры́ may also mean locatives of feminine equivalents Пятра́ or Іва́на. Пятру́ is loc. sg of both Пятро́ and Пёт(а)р. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Hmm. This must be a Taraškievica-specific thing. Normally, masculine personal nouns whose stem ends in an always-hard consonant, e.g. Пятро́, Пёт(а)р, should have -у, and masculine personal nouns whose stem ends in a soft consonant should have -ю, but this doesn't apply to personal nouns ending in a hard paired consonant like Іва́н or Ігна́т. I'm wary of including Taraškievica endings unless we specifically footnote them as such. My preference would be first off to not include Taraškievica endings, and later on figure out how to include them in a systematic fashion rather than ad-hoc in certain nouns. This might mean, for example, alternative Taraškievica declension tables, like how we have distinct declension tables for pre-reform Russian rather than mixing the pre-reform forms into the regular tables. Benwing2 (talk) 07:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Benwing2: This one is standard Belarusian but says the same thing: http://www.shumilino.by/?p=25818.

I know what you mean but I don't have the full confidence we can clearly and consistently define the border between the two standards. Otherwise, we have to stick strictly to slounik's grammar sources, I don't know. There are a few things where we can see a clear border, like сьць vs сць, etc. There is no claim on the "government" or "standard" Belarusian that the other (Taraškievica) is incorrect. The "standard version of Belarusian is simply not used much. Lukashenka government just uses Russian. They have written some norms and probably forgotten about them. It will become difficult because we will have to search for real examples used in Google books and I can see that for example, fem. gen. pl ending -аў is not a feature of Taraškievica alone, it's just Belarusian. I'll leave it up to you. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:13, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Could you please clarify what you meant by "this doesn't apply to personal nouns ending in a hard paired consonant like Іва́н or Ігна́т." Also what is "hard paired consonant". I want to research a little more. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Sorry for disrupting your efforts. Yes, this feature is Taraškievica.

I found this in the be-tarask Wikipedia: "Магчыма выкарыстаньне ў формах меснага склону адзіночнага ліку 1-га скланеньня флексіі -у." (It is possible to use the ending -y in the locative case singular in the 1st declension") - "у Фаўстусе" (standard) — "у Фаўстусу" (Taraškievica). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:56, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev If you want, we can add these forms to the existing tables, with a Taraškievica footnote. Do they apply only to personal names or to all masculine personal nouns? BTW by hard paired consonant I mean any consonant that is hard and comes in both hard and soft versions, e.g. с з т д н л м б п ф в etc. but not р ш ж ч or ц (there is a soft ць but it's really the soft version of т, not of ц). Benwing2 (talk) 00:37, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: This sounds good. What you suggested originally, is fine too - a separate declension table for Taraškievica. It may be difficult to add footnotes throughout, I don't know. I am building my knowledge on what the difference is, e.g. "ме́сьце" is Taraškievica loc. sg for "ме́сце". The challenge is to identify what is just a standard alternative form, which applies to both standard and Taraškievica, colloquial, etc. It's much easier to search for forms in Google books or media, confirm and say - yes, it's a valid form, can be added to the declension and reserve the label "Taraškievica" only for different titles. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:48, 28 July 2020 (UTC)