Talk:παπαγᾶς

Medieval Greek

Dear @A. T. Galenitis, there is no Med.Greek language section in en.wiktionary. The code gkm gives Category:Byzantine Greek (which is a different period than what the source {{R:Kriaras Medieval}} covers) and gives valid Categories only for etymologies FROM gkm. Normal categories cannot be created.
Here, we need bor|gkm|ar which gives an error: Arabic بَبَّغَاء (babbaḡāʔ).
As for declensions, they are not described at {{R:LBG}} (9th-12th centuries) or Kriaras (10th to 17th century, 22 volumes up to lemma 'σταματῶ' as in 2021); only attestations form by form, case by case. Inflections for later words, are like early modern greek, almost identical to modern greek (e.g. no dative, plurals in -άδες etc). Early words, are more similar to Koine. (Excluding texts written in Koine, or attic fashion).
In my opinion, no 'Ancient Greek' category should be applied at medieval words which did not exist in Koine or Anc.Greek. In my early days in en.wikt, I have requested the gkm code, but unfortunately it seems that there was not enough space, or no editors, or no texts, plus other reasons which I cannot understand... Since then, I stopped doing any gkm lemmata to avoid weird categories such as Category:Ancient Greek surnames (sic!). I am so very sorry that en.wikt cannot create the 600-1669 period of Med.Greek, the dates as described at most greek sources for its bibligoraphy. They could be created, if you wish, at el.wikt, at el:Κατηγορία:Μεσαιωνικά ελληνικά. Thank you for your excellent work, I love reading it! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 17:40, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Sarri.greek, I am pleased to see that you, too, are so troubled by the lack of gkm as a separate language. In my opinion this is a serious omission and factually incorrect treatment of the Hellenic languages - who would sensibly classify, for example, a 15^th c. form as Ancient Greek? The category problem is notable, as well; when creating ζουλάπιν, we ended up having Category: Ancient Greek terms derived from Old Anatolian Turkish (!)

Should we perhaps request once more the creation of the Medieval Greek language category? Even if this wasn't possible in earlier days of en.wikt, by now many counterexamples (from other languages, e.g. Middle Armenian axm) and justifications (as said very well by you above) exist in support. Being a much more inexperienced user I am not sure where to make this request, but I would very happily contribute to the category once created! A. T. Galenitis (talk) 18:53, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @A. T. Galenitis. I' m coming back in a moment. In the meantime, you could take a look at Template talk:gkm and at Wiktionary:Etymology_scriptorium/2018/May#time_paradox, Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2016/January#Making_Byzantine_Greek_an_etymology-only_language. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 19:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

@A. T. Galenitis, For greek at English.wiktionary most editors are interested in Homer, the ancient dialects, ancient phonology, protogreek. Their contribution has been immense and they are excellent hellenists and etymologists. There are no editors interested for the periods from hellenistic times onwards (Here, CAT:Koine Greek is up to 300CE, not 600 (when greek becomes official language). As for Medieval, it is true, that centuries 7-9 are 'silent': all writers were using Koine or Attic style and we do not have attestations for the spoken lang. The first text for spoken Med is w:Digenes Akritas 12th century - Διγενής@Dimodis.

We may request the gkm code again, but technically, to separate from grc is very difficult, and there is noone to execute such a task. Changes would involve correcting a) the 'About' pages Wiktionary:About Ancient Greek, Wiktionary:About Greek, the Module:grc-pronunciation, Module for languages, categories etc...

Perhaps we could just make a note at Wiktionary:Beer parlour, that the periodization as used at el.wikt now is (plus we need some bibliography too)

1) Hellenistic Koine 300BCE-600CE which includes many christian terms

2) Mediaeval (not restricted to Byzantine) is 600/700-1669. Phases: Early (600-1100), main (1100-1453), Late Medieval (1453-1669, end of Cretan literature: a phase which could also be seen as Early Modern because it survives so often in Modern Greek, especially in dialectal modern. All these use polytonic script. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 19:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I understand the situation and difficulties around the technical side of things, although some of the arguments from the previous discussions on the matter (thank you for searching all these!) seem weak. Personally I find the en.wikt approach a bit dishonest, but realistically there is indeed a lot of work to be done. I would be very willing to participate in this at a later time; I suggest to put the issue on hold for 2-3 months, and if you agree we can revisit it with renewed vigour. Thanks a lot for these first thoughts, I believe we can accomplish this sooner or later! Με εκτίμηση, A. T. Galenitis (talk) 20:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)