Talk:γάιδαρος

etymology

moved from Talk:γαϊδούρι

DSMG dictionary at γάιδαρος=donkey states that the Medieval γάιδαρος comes from arabic gadar, gaidar. The only thing I found about gaidar is:

• w:Gaidar: A spelling variant of an Arabic name (Arabic حيدر), another form of (حيدرة), see Haydar.
• which has to do with 'lion', 'harshness', 'oppression', I understand
• I understand that donkey = حِمَار‎‎

Does anyone know anything about this? سُكْرَاً sarri.greek (talk) 18:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

• any connection with Hindi ghádar, gadarō, gadaró ? sarri.greek (talk) 19:11, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

• These choices here do not make sense, حَيْدَر (ḥaydar) is a personal name supposed to mean ”lion”, apparently not really used for except as name, جَيْدَار (jaydār) is an obscure name for Quercus coccifera (Freytag, Georg (1830) “جَيْدَار”, in Lexicon arabico-latinum praesertim ex Djeuharii Firuzabadiique et aliorum Arabum operibus adhibitis Golii quoque et aliorum libris confectum‎^[1] (in Latin), volume 1, Halle: C. A. Schwetschke, page 329), جَيْدَر (jaydar) is an obscure diminutive of جِدَار (jidār, “wall”), also an obscure name of a wine.
• The form in question seems to be غَيْذَار (ḡayḏār, “ass”), Freytag, Georg (1835) “غيْذَار”, in Lexicon arabico-latinum praesertim ex Djeuharii Firuzabadiique et aliorum Arabum operibus adhibitis Golii quoque et aliorum libris confectum‎^[2] (in Latin), volume 3, Halle: C. A. Schwetschke, page 262, but this is obscure: It has no derivation and does not sound Arabic, and Ibn Manẓūr writes about it: “I have read it in a book of Ibn Duraid, he calls the ass Ġayḏar (…) and I have not seen it except in this book (…) and I do not know if it is عَيْذار (ʕayḏār) or غَيْذار (ḡayḏār) [i.e. because of Rasm].”
• Also the Aramaic is claimed to be from Greek, “gydrwn”, in The Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon Project, Cincinnati: Hebrew Union College, 1986–.
• @Sarri.greek @Profes.I. Fay Freak (talk) 20:36, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I can’t read what stands before, but at the end some dictionary (I don’t know what dictionary that is) gives a plausible etymon Venetan cargatore (literally “carrier”) from Venetan cargar (“to load onto oneself”) (the Venetians went at times quite far into the Balkan).

Also, I don’t think we should repeat alternative forms as synonyms. Fay Freak (talk) 21:36, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Fay Freak -note: I am NOT a linguist, not even amateur-. It is a good compiler-dictionary site, and it metnions some more theories which are abandoned. The Arabic version, as it translates it, is supposed to mean oppression.

• Your غَيْذَار (ḡayḏār) and Ibn Manzur's, I like very much because of the ɣayn. The Venetian mmmm (yes, we had Enetocracy in many islands for long)... But if I heard the word, I would have transferred it in greek: καργάδος (/karɣaδos/) (we say κάργο [karɣo] for cargo). I like your ɣ and ð as original sounds, not g → ɣ.

As for the Hindi words meaning 'gypsy', mentioned at the good greek Medieval-Lang dictionary of Kriaras, I do not know... Thank you so much for your interest for the poor greek donkey sarri.greek (talk) 22:01, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

 @Sarri.greek You can see without being a linguist that the factual reasons weigh too much against the Arabic. It is totally απόκρυφον, no known Arab has ever heard this word, so neither could a Greek under any circumstance have heard this word. Combined with the fact that this is not how an Arabic word looks like I can say with certainty that this is not an Arabic word and you have to search the origin elsewhere. Look, the Arabic noun appendix is an exhaustive list of noun derivations for what you need to know. No way Arabic words have the form KayMāL, this simply does not exist, only in foreign words (like مَيْدَان (maydān). Profes.I. will probably tell you the same. Fay Freak (talk) 22:46, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

ok, @Fay Freak:, got it. It is amazing that most greek dictionaries have it. سُكْرَاً sarri.greek (talk) 22:56, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I have now read a bit about Venetocracy and the question is: From which time can you provide Byzantine Greek quotes? If they start in the 13th century, you have proven that it is from Venetian, the more so if the sources are related to the Ionian islands. As far a I have decrypted some of the abbreviations in the Diccionario Griego-Español (which you linked over ΛΟΓΕΙΟΝ), they appear to be some certain papyri, which makes sense for Greece in the 13th century (unlike for Central Europe where at this time only parchment was used).

(the Ibn Duraid word if it is real is then probably a corruption of عَيْر (ʕayr, “wild ass”), unrelated to the Greek). Fay Freak (talk) 01:13, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Dear @Fay Freak, YOU have proven, not I. I am a pianist (and I am in wiktionary by accident). YOUR signature should be at this quest for the etymon of γάιδαρος. How can I quote your name?

• Medieval Greek: very difficult thing. Byzantine quotes? The elite wrote in ancient Attic Greek; verrrry few sources for the people's language... I will have to phone some friends, to answer to your questions, please bear with me. It is August and everyone is away...
• Enetocracy or Venetocracy: wikipedia 1204 to 1600s (until Ottomans took over), also in Aegean islands (the sea between Greece and Turkey): even today, there are some catholics there, since the Venetian era. The Ionian islands are flat, they do not use donkeys. On the other hand, have you seen w:Santorini? (Thera) They have always used donkeys, and still using them.

I am afraid, I am not equipped to answer. But if I get any info, I'll post it. Thank you, Fay! sarri.greek (talk) 15:56, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

etymology Koine

--A correction of above: donkeys are used equally in all terrains: flat and mountainous (Ionian, and Aegean islands, and all over Greece)
γάιδαρος cannot be Venetian:

• ancient donkey = ὄνος
• New Testament Gospels (60-110, no later than 120 CE): ὄνος
• Hadrian's times (76-138) r.117–138: w:Diogenianus paroemiographus (“proverb-writer”) writes: γάδαρος^DGE /ˈɣaðaros/
• ὄνος and γάδαρος must have coexisted for some time before Διογενιανός. Γάδαρος must have been colloquial (apparently mentioned in a proverb^{but I have not seen the text.}). A written text of the era, would avoid it.
• Is there an arabic implication? As @Fay Freak has demonstrated so thoroughly, it seems most unlikely. Most greek dictionaries say yes. Can they both be right? Is it possible that the word WAS heard in the Near East by both arab and greek listeners?
  • The closest (phonetically) word I find, is the city of el:w:Γάδαρα, Syria, today's w:Umm Qais, Jordan (@unesco) Did they have any special donkey-breeding there? ...
• The 'learned', continued using όνος (it is still used as archaism today)
• As for the first Byzantine quote of γάδαρος, the earliest I can find mentioned at Kriaras Medieval Dictionary is 12th century by w:Michael Glykas. But since Diongenianus, it has never stopped existing. sarri.greek (talk) 12:02, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Indian

@AryamanA: Can you isolate words reminiscent of this Greek donkey word, particularly words meaning “gypsy“ (which would also need explanation)? “Hindi” does not sound well, it can only be an Apabhraṃśa, though I don’t know what Gypsies have to do with donkeys. Maybe it will beseem to be stated that such a word from India is a myth. Fay Freak (talk) 23:55, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: I don't know of any such words in Hindi or any Middle Indo-Aryan lect, nor can I find it in my dictionaries. गधा (gadhā) meaning "donkey" is indeed a word but the resemblance seems to be superficial. No idea about the whole "Gypsy" thing, it all seems to be a very unlikely explanation to me. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 19:56, 23 September 2018 (UTC)