Reconstruction talk:Proto-West Germanic/īsajikilljā

īskachel

@Leasnam, are you sure MHG īskachel and MLG îskēgel are unrelated? Could they instead be from *īsagikilljā? -- Sokkjō 05:02, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@Sokkjo, Well, Middle High German īskachel is from īs ("ice") + kachel ("dish, tile, shard") from Old High German kachala (“pot”). And Middle Low German îskēgel is from îs ("ice") + kēgel ("spike, peg, cone") (< *kagilaz). Do you see them being related ? If so, then how ? Leasnam (talk) 06:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@Leasnam: Or, they could simply be from *īsagakil, with the *-ji- reshaped by *ga-, as seen in *jikil(ljā). -- Sokkjō 16:04, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I think Proto-West Germanic *gajikilljā > Old Saxon gikilla (also Old High German kihhilla) makes sense; but the rest is wonky. Do we have a reconstruction for *gajikilljā yet ? Ahh, apparently not. Leasnam (talk) 16:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I created *gajikilljā.
The stress would have to be on ga in *īsagákil (for *ī́sagajíkil) for Middle High German īskachel to be realised, which would be highly irregular, and it would likely cause i-mutation to Middle High German *īskechel...so there are multiple difficulties. And of course Middle Low German îskēgel could not be related to this, unless it were a borrowing. Leasnam (talk) 17:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

That also crossed my mind, but was too lazy to look up *ga-ji- outcomes. Either way, *īsaga(ji)kil with expected syncopation seems likely enough to produce MHG īskachel and MLG îskēgel. -- Sokkjō 17:15, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Mmmmmm, please see above (?). The ji would be a stressed syllable, so why would syncopation occur there ? Leasnam (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

We also know from Middle High German īszapfe, īszolle, etc. that combinations involving īs + [noun] meaning "icicle" were common if not still productive in Middle High German, so it's not unlikely for īskachel to be a new formation. Leasnam (talk) 17:32, 7 August 2023 (UTC)