Reconstruction talk:Proto-Japonic/pitunsi

Particles in derivation

@Chuterix, what does "special particle" mean?

Might the つ be the genitive つ?

Might the nasal be from a genitive の?

If so, any explanation for why this would have doubled genitive particles? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Eirikr Yeah, I think the つ is a genitive particle and the -n- is a nasal. As I said, you can change the etymology just like what you did such as in 宝 (takara, “treasure”). Chuterix (talk) 21:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

The reason why I put e.g. was because Martin mentioned 鹿 (shika, “deer”) as deriving from the animal suffix, but shika already has an etymology deriving the compound from something else. Chuterix (talk) 21:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Now editing hitsuji again... Chuterix (talk) 21:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Ryukyuan

What about the wildly irregular Ryukyuan forms found here: https://www.jlect.com/search.php?r=goat&l=all&group=words? Kwékwlos (talk) 02:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr pinged.

@Kwékwlos perhaps a contraction from innovated *pitsm-(r)a (lit. "sheep-PLURAL")? Chuterix (talk) 02:28, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos ancient talks:

Proto-Japonic *petunsi and Proto-Ryukyuan *pebeza

Hello @Eirikr!

What makes the shift from PJ *petunsi to PR *pebeza unexplainable? Since you removed the PR as a descendant of *petunsi and say in the PR entry it’s distinct from PJ *petunsi. Chuterix (talk) 19:39, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@Chuterix: We have two phonological problems here.

How does Proto-Japonic medial -tu- become Proto-Ryukyuan -be-? This is completely unexplainable.

How does Proto-Japonic final -i become Proto-Ryukyuan -a? This is not as bizarre as the -tu- → -be- proposal, but still an issue.

The latter vowel shift might be explainable by other processes, such as fusion with another element. We see such fusion in inflecting terms, such as JA adjective asai reflecting in Okinawan as asasan.

However, there is nothing to tie Japonic -tu- to Ryukyuan -be-. There are zero phonological processes that could cause such a shift: the initial consonants are wholly different, with incompatible places of articulation, and the vowels are also unrelated and without any relevant mechanism for transformation. We must conclude that these are different elements -- which means that the Proto-Ryukyuan term cannot be an inheritance from the Proto-Japonic term. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:17, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Chuterix (talk) 02:31, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Chuterix, useful etym notes at the bottom of the JLect entry: https://www.jlect.com/entry/4511/fiijaa/ ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:09, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

terms

IIRC i think there exist 未 (fichiji) among other Northern Ryukyuan terms, but not attested in Southern Ryukuyan. Chuterix (talk) 22:51, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

@ja Chuterix (talk) 22:51, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Kwékwlos, Mellohi!): Chuterix (talk) 22:51, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Meaning the Goat; zodiac term. Chuterix (talk) 22:51, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

JLect search results, for reference: https://www.jlect.com/search.php?r=%E6%9C%AA&l=ryukyu&group=words ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:36, 19 July 2023 (UTC)