Reconstruction talk:Proto-Japonic/n-anu-

MYS term?

@Chuterix, it'd be great if you could add in the "special term in the Man'yōshū" that Vovin mentioned. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure; it's an Eastern Old Japanese variant, so it would have to be made with that. aⁿ- is the native form of "what" in Eastern Old Japanese, while nani is the native form of "what" in Western Old Japanese.

As this is a reconstructed word, it seems unclear to me how the initial n- was removed during the production of Eastern Old Japanese aⁿ-.

aⁿ- was only used in Western Old Japanese one time in the Man'yōshū (MYS.15.3639), probably due to the native language of the compiler.

nani was only attested in Eastern Old Japanese once, possibly from the influence of Western Old Japanese.

When I said "special term from the Man'yōshū", I think I meant the Eastern Old Japanese variant aⁿ- was taken into consideration during reconstruction. Vovin had tentatively reconstructed as *nanu before this happened.

If you want I can make Old Japanese entry for 何 of both variants. Chuterix (talk) 23:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

By the way, to make things clear I have changed the so-called "special term" to Eastern Old Japanese, as this is what Vovin actually did the aⁿ- reconstruction from, not from a irregular Western Old Japanese variant which is only used once. Chuterix (talk) 00:02, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

@Chuterix: Thank you for the clarifications. Related entries in the NKD at Kotobank:

• あど ("how")
• あぜ ("why")

Re: the reconstruction, I am not sure I agree with your conclusion that the initial n- is necessarily isolatable. We do not know if the difference between WOJ nani and hypothetical EOJ ani is the result of deletion or addition. For that matter, I think we also don't have any attestation of EOJ ani ("what"), only supposed combined forms ado ("how") and aze ("why"). I do see an instance of WOJ ani with a purported meaning of "how" or "why", as noted here at Weblio Kobun, cited to MYS 3.345. This raises the possibility that this WOJ ani ("how; why") was a separate word that was distinct from nani ("what"), and this WOJ ani had a reflex *ani in EOJ that produced derived combined EOJ forms ado ("how") and aze ("why").

Regarding the final -nuy, I'm confused by your description of "Old Ryukyuan なお (nau)." What is this Old Ryukyuan term? And why does the hiragana not match the romaji? Moreover, if Proto-Japonic nanuy became Proto-Ryukyuan nau, that would presumably have happened via deletion of the medial -n- and the final -y. Consequently, Proto-Ryukyuan nau does not correspond directly at all with the final -nuy in Proto-Japonic nanuy.

Re: alternative forms, where did you get nanoy and nanu-? I have not been able to find anything for either of these. While nanoy might well be reflected in modern JA nani, any form nanu should manifest as nanu, for which we have no apparent evidence.

Fun stuff, thank you for a very interesting discussion! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:51, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

@Eirikr,

*n-anuy and *nanoy were both used together in the pages of Vovin (2020).

*n-anu- was used in Vovin (2010) (Koreo-Japonica), probably a deeper reconstruction of *n-anuy. This should also explain why Proto-Ryukyuan *nau exists, and *n-anuy was probably just Proto-Japanese (this is different from Proto-Japonic; Proto-Japonic is Proto-Japanese-Ryukyuan'). I’ll get into more details tomorrow, such as why the romaji doesn’t match with spelling of nau. (I see your replies this afternoon; I have school and I’m a CST/CDT person) Chuterix (talk) 01:28, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I didn’t have time to put details. Chuterix (talk) 03:22, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

@Chuterix, I have not seen anything particularly convincing yet for this reconstruction.

• Re: Ryukyuan forms, I must point out that JA nani appears as shortened nan. The -n → -u shift occurs even in OJP in borrowings from ZH, where ZH final -ŋ often reflects as JA -u. Then vowel fusion would proceed as nan → nau → nō, with the Ryukyuan o → u shift producing the nū we see in Okinawan.

JLect actually suggests something along similar lines: https://www.jlect.com/entry/313/nuu/

• Re: Eastern Old Japanese, we still have no clear reason to conflate ani and nani, and thus no reason to reconstruct the initial n in nani as separable, and also no reason to include Eastern Old Japanese aⁿ as a cognate of Western nani.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:07, 4 December 2023 (UTC)