Module talk:zh/data/dial-syn/自己人
Add topicLatest comment: 3 years ago by Mar vin kaiser in topic Philippine Hokkien
Philippine Hokkien
[edit]@Mlgc1998 I'm pretty sure in the Philippines, we use "咱儂" (Nan-nang) only to refer to Chinese people, and never literally as "our own people". For "our own people" (as in for example, people in my family and not from another family), we say 家己儂. Do you have a different experience? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:06, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: Oh it's "Nan-nang" in your family? "咱儂" is a bit weird across different families throughout the years and months I've started thinking about it. In my family and virtually everyone else I've ever heard it orally as, they always said it like "Lan-nang" or "Lan-lang" (like, i think I've legit not yet heard "nan-nang" irl besides what people write on the internet), but when I met a filchi friend from Cebu years ago, he says he's always heard it as "Nan-nang" and some youtube and facebook comments seem to also exhibit this with the user who says that also usually coming from around Cebu, so I thought maybe it was a Cebu thing, but then months or years later, I met some other filchi on facebook saying that in their family, they've always heard it as "Nan-nang" and they said they had parents who have always been around metro manila or bicol region or maybe samar, so very weird lol. Afaik, the differentiation I think we use at least in my family is that "Lan-nang" is either just anything "chinese" in general or specifically that being filchi, but "lan-lang"(咱儂) or "lan-e-lang"(咱的儂) is literally just anything to connote "our people" or "tauhan natin" in tagalog, like as in, it could mean like our students, our employees, our people from whichever community or group or gang. I think I've not heard of 家己儂(kai-ki-lang) before, besides maybe as part of sarcastic expressions like 家己的儂,你𣍐曉...(kai-ki e lang, di bue hiau...). There's lots of these weird minute differences in other families that some have and some don't but others have in common, like last week or so, I just then realized that some families here apparently ate 狀元圓(chiong-oan-iⁿ) for christmas or new years or some called it usually as bilu-bilo in tagalog, I think, or as peanut balls or rice balls or something like that in english and like people always only knew the one or two names and had no idea about the third name. I didn't know before the tagalog terms and just thought it was a separate dish. Other friends just randomly mentioned they always for some reason ate and loved eating 狀元圓(chiong-oan-iⁿ) somewhere by christmas but never knew it had something to do with winter solstice. I think in my family, this was never done and 狀元圓(chiong-oan-iⁿ) was mostly a 上元(siong-guan) thing. It's weird how sparse the differences are and if there's ever a pattern to it. --Mlgc1998 (talk) 21:03, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Just to rephrase the question, have you ever heard 咱儂 used to refer to a specific family excluding outsiders, or something like that? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: As I said, "lan-lang"(咱儂) or "lan-e-lang"(咱的儂) is literally "our people" or "tauhan natin" in tagalog, which refers to any inclusive group or community or gang or company or organization of our own, so: our employees, our students, our pupils, our townspeople, our villagers, our churchmates, our organization members, our anything of our own, not just some family. It encompasses so much that people keep using it enough that the pronunciation even starts to differ that it became a common ethnonym since speakers keep referring to anything inclusive of the chinese speaker as our own. So for example, 咱儂鬥相共 lan-lang tau-saⁿ-kang can connote to so much. Usually for me at least, I hear it used by some small family business owners use it to refer to our or their employees especially the old family businesses that deal with many manual labor employees like hardwares or factories or printing press. --Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:50, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Are you sure they're not just using 咱的儂, the last syllable being obviously "lang" and not "nang"? Have you ever heard the word "Lan-nang" or "Nan-nang" used to mean "tauhan natin" (emphasis on the last syllable being "nang" and not "lang")? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:13, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: I hear that one with the 的 less (probably cuz its longer), but the meanings are treated the same as their literal common noun sense. you know how people are around here. it's messy and ambiguous but those are the ideas that pop in people's heads. not everyone knows the difference or is strict on it or have heard of all 3 variants or not all have a strict differentiation that this or that pronunciation means this specifically, but some do have a specific differentiation but it also may differ how people differentiate it, especially per generation and maybe place. people also have a different idea of which and why they use either "chinese filipino" or "filipino chinese" or "tsinoy" or "chinoy". that ambiguity also extends to this one on "lan-nang" / "lan-lang" / "nan-nang" for people cuz it's not clarified a lot in many families and is usually entirely based on which word they hear more and unknowingly pass on whichever way they understood that. for me at least, I usually only hear "lan-nang" and "lan-lang", never "nan-nang", then maybe rarely "lan-e-lang", then I think there was maybe an old lady with a thick accent too before that I heard sounded more like "ran-rang". it gets weird like that lol. For many families, I'd believe more that when they say "lan-nang" then they're most likely referring to chinese filipino specifically, but the boomer gen and older may also just mean chinese in general and since filchi are mostly the "chinese" people they meet in life in ph then it all basically coincides the same to many people. If people do this long enough for those specific senses they heard long enough, that's when the meanings feel "off" when it then gets used by someone differently, but people are distributed enough with no standard that how they developed that idea in their mind varies. From what I have experienced so far, most people I expect they will use "lan-nang" or "nan-nang" as the ethnonym or proper noun, then the other general literal common noun "our own people" sense (if they ever have an opportunity of using that if somehow they speak for their inclusive group somewhere) goes to the "lan-lang" one, but in reality most likely, people will confuse them all in varying degrees in most families since it's never clear and reliant on frequency of use, tho this is the frequency I picked up on at least around my family and whoever old people in churches and associations.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 02:28, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Sorry, can you answer just yes or no? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:08, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: aiya my goodness marvin, inexplain ko na ilang beses. they all coincide in meaning nga. lan-lang nga is literally the shortened form of lan-e-lang that refers to the literal common noun "our own people" that is more common at least for me, lan-nang ung proper noun. it would be weird for me if I said lan-lang-ue, lan-lang-o-tng, lan-lang-ioh, lan-lang-tsai, but it would be normal if it was lan-nang-ue, lan-nang-o-tng, lan-nang-ioh, lan-nang-tsai. I've never personally heard nan-nang so if that was used there instead, it would be weird for me too but since u guys and like, maybe 2 other people with their families I directly know, now supposedly use that so I'm gonna trust u guys na that's supposedly true too for nan-nang as a proper noun.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 10:45, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: I think there's a misunderstanding. Sorry on my part. My question is just this, based on your experience, do you actually hear "lan-e-lang" shortened to "lan-lang" (and not "lan-nang") to mean "our own people"? Just yes or no. And if yes, how often? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:44, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Just to explain why I'm asking this, it's because my answer to the question is no, I've never heard "lan-e-lang" shortened to "lan-lang", because to me, "lan-lang" means something like "we as people". Example sentence would be "Lán lâng tióh tsuè-hó-tāi-tsī." (We, as people, should do good deeds). --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:12, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: lol wtf This confused me soooo much. There's now another meaning lol. Tho, I think it has to do with the multiple meanings of 咱 as either (inclusive) we/us; or (inclusive) our. So yeah, there's "Lán lâng tióh ...<do something something>" (We/Us people should... <do something something>), and then there seems to be either: "Lán lâng ê mi̍h-kiāⁿ<or other possession>" (Our people's equipment<or other possession>) which refers to our company or business or household or whichever group's possessions; and then when you're specifying someone to be "of our inclusive group", it's like: "Kuya <someone> sǐ lán--ê lâng" or "Kuya <someone> sǐ lán lâng" (Bro <someone> is one of our people) implying like he works for us or our company or is part of our inclusive group. So, yeees in that sort of sense, tho this is confusing me and the ones I can ask are also confused what the specific different nuance in semantics we're on about.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:42, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: The only thing I'm concerned about is whether 咱儂 in Philippine Hokkien means the same thing as "自己人". Because to me, it does not. That's why I'm asking for your experience. Because I've never used 咱儂 to mean "自己人". You see, I'm skeptical of letting "咱儂" remain in this chart, because so far what you've told me is very vague. I've never heard "lán--ê lâng" contracted to "lán lâng". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:51, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: I first encountered this concept of "自己人" from a chinese indonesian that told me that in indonesia, the teochew community there calls themselves as their community with 家己儂 (ka kī nâng) which they are supposedly addicted to using this term that even their convention meeting events use it, but the equivalent term we use here for this concept is 咱儂. I don't get what you mean by 咱儂 not meaning "one of our own" cuz isn't this what all those filchi groups and orgs are using it to mean and the other filchi that I've met like in Sulu, Davao, Dumaguete, Vigan, they also know about this word in reference to themselves being filchi or asking others if they're filchi too or not and the idea why they can do that is originally from this concept of its literal meaning, which is sometimes still used at least in my experience. Probably it is now odd in other people's experience because it's meaning of being chinese or filchi has been used frequently enough that it has overshadowed that original idea from the current mainstream meaning of this.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:41, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: It's simply really. There are two possible words here, "lán-nâng" and "lán lâng". For the first one, ask people what "lán-nâng" literally means, and they'll never say "our own people" nor "one of our own". They will always say "Chinese" or something like that. Therefore, "lán-nâng" at the very least should not be in this chart. As for "lán lâng", as I said, I've never heard it in my life to mean "one of our own". And if it is a contraction of "lán--ê lâng", I've also never heard that contracted. Again, to be clear, "lán-nâng" in Philippine Hokkien only means "Chinese" and nothing else. It's the "lán lâng" I'm asking you about. So let's stop talking about "lán-nâng" and focus on "lán lâng". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:47, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: Idk what to tell you, besides that I have heard of it and there are words too that you've added before that I've never heard of before besides at that moment that I saw the page you added, yet I'd trust and assume you must've heard it from somewhere but I don't go bugging you about where you heard it from and when I did ask u about something, you didn't respond too. Also, everytime someone introduces the term "Lan-nang" to people in my experience kaya, they always say that it implies filchi then proceeds to say that it literally means "our people" or at least this is what the youth always say, the only people I've encountered who treat it to mean just chinese in general are boomers and elders. If you ask some filchi gen X or millennial or gen Z if a mainlander is lannang, what will they say? If you ask a boomer or elder naman, what will they say? Then, it depends again how that person feels about others on their extent of defining that. Will I repeat again the same things I've said above? "you know how people are around here. it's messy and ambiguous" some of us have not heard what you've heard, some of what you've heard, I've never heard of before too. That's why older obsolete terms in past iterations of this dialect have died out. Also if you're concerned about the focus of discussion, can you just msg me on fb instead of here for all the whatever concerns cuz I don't expectantly wait for a notification in wiktionary or wikipedia everytime and this talk system of the wiki websites is not UX-friendly since they don't seem to have implemented a proper comment system or forum system module like in disqus or wikia unlike other websites, plus it's mostly you who pings me and the others that bug me are on fb.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Sorry if it's getting long lol. Could you just describe the scenarios when you have heard "lan-lang" specifically used? And if you could tell me if "lan" there experiences tone sandhi or not. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: Idk what to tell you, besides that I have heard of it and there are words too that you've added before that I've never heard of before besides at that moment that I saw the page you added, yet I'd trust and assume you must've heard it from somewhere but I don't go bugging you about where you heard it from and when I did ask u about something, you didn't respond too. Also, everytime someone introduces the term "Lan-nang" to people in my experience kaya, they always say that it implies filchi then proceeds to say that it literally means "our people" or at least this is what the youth always say, the only people I've encountered who treat it to mean just chinese in general are boomers and elders. If you ask some filchi gen X or millennial or gen Z if a mainlander is lannang, what will they say? If you ask a boomer or elder naman, what will they say? Then, it depends again how that person feels about others on their extent of defining that. Will I repeat again the same things I've said above? "you know how people are around here. it's messy and ambiguous" some of us have not heard what you've heard, some of what you've heard, I've never heard of before too. That's why older obsolete terms in past iterations of this dialect have died out. Also if you're concerned about the focus of discussion, can you just msg me on fb instead of here for all the whatever concerns cuz I don't expectantly wait for a notification in wiktionary or wikipedia everytime and this talk system of the wiki websites is not UX-friendly since they don't seem to have implemented a proper comment system or forum system module like in disqus or wikia unlike other websites, plus it's mostly you who pings me and the others that bug me are on fb.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: It's simply really. There are two possible words here, "lán-nâng" and "lán lâng". For the first one, ask people what "lán-nâng" literally means, and they'll never say "our own people" nor "one of our own". They will always say "Chinese" or something like that. Therefore, "lán-nâng" at the very least should not be in this chart. As for "lán lâng", as I said, I've never heard it in my life to mean "one of our own". And if it is a contraction of "lán--ê lâng", I've also never heard that contracted. Again, to be clear, "lán-nâng" in Philippine Hokkien only means "Chinese" and nothing else. It's the "lán lâng" I'm asking you about. So let's stop talking about "lán-nâng" and focus on "lán lâng". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:47, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: I first encountered this concept of "自己人" from a chinese indonesian that told me that in indonesia, the teochew community there calls themselves as their community with 家己儂 (ka kī nâng) which they are supposedly addicted to using this term that even their convention meeting events use it, but the equivalent term we use here for this concept is 咱儂. I don't get what you mean by 咱儂 not meaning "one of our own" cuz isn't this what all those filchi groups and orgs are using it to mean and the other filchi that I've met like in Sulu, Davao, Dumaguete, Vigan, they also know about this word in reference to themselves being filchi or asking others if they're filchi too or not and the idea why they can do that is originally from this concept of its literal meaning, which is sometimes still used at least in my experience. Probably it is now odd in other people's experience because it's meaning of being chinese or filchi has been used frequently enough that it has overshadowed that original idea from the current mainstream meaning of this.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:41, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: The only thing I'm concerned about is whether 咱儂 in Philippine Hokkien means the same thing as "自己人". Because to me, it does not. That's why I'm asking for your experience. Because I've never used 咱儂 to mean "自己人". You see, I'm skeptical of letting "咱儂" remain in this chart, because so far what you've told me is very vague. I've never heard "lán--ê lâng" contracted to "lán lâng". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:51, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: lol wtf This confused me soooo much. There's now another meaning lol. Tho, I think it has to do with the multiple meanings of 咱 as either (inclusive) we/us; or (inclusive) our. So yeah, there's "Lán lâng tióh ...<do something something>" (We/Us people should... <do something something>), and then there seems to be either: "Lán lâng ê mi̍h-kiāⁿ<or other possession>" (Our people's equipment<or other possession>) which refers to our company or business or household or whichever group's possessions; and then when you're specifying someone to be "of our inclusive group", it's like: "Kuya <someone> sǐ lán--ê lâng" or "Kuya <someone> sǐ lán lâng" (Bro <someone> is one of our people) implying like he works for us or our company or is part of our inclusive group. So, yeees in that sort of sense, tho this is confusing me and the ones I can ask are also confused what the specific different nuance in semantics we're on about.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 14:42, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Just to explain why I'm asking this, it's because my answer to the question is no, I've never heard "lan-e-lang" shortened to "lan-lang", because to me, "lan-lang" means something like "we as people". Example sentence would be "Lán lâng tióh tsuè-hó-tāi-tsī." (We, as people, should do good deeds). --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:12, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: I think there's a misunderstanding. Sorry on my part. My question is just this, based on your experience, do you actually hear "lan-e-lang" shortened to "lan-lang" (and not "lan-nang") to mean "our own people"? Just yes or no. And if yes, how often? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:44, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: aiya my goodness marvin, inexplain ko na ilang beses. they all coincide in meaning nga. lan-lang nga is literally the shortened form of lan-e-lang that refers to the literal common noun "our own people" that is more common at least for me, lan-nang ung proper noun. it would be weird for me if I said lan-lang-ue, lan-lang-o-tng, lan-lang-ioh, lan-lang-tsai, but it would be normal if it was lan-nang-ue, lan-nang-o-tng, lan-nang-ioh, lan-nang-tsai. I've never personally heard nan-nang so if that was used there instead, it would be weird for me too but since u guys and like, maybe 2 other people with their families I directly know, now supposedly use that so I'm gonna trust u guys na that's supposedly true too for nan-nang as a proper noun.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 10:45, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Sorry, can you answer just yes or no? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:08, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: I hear that one with the 的 less (probably cuz its longer), but the meanings are treated the same as their literal common noun sense. you know how people are around here. it's messy and ambiguous but those are the ideas that pop in people's heads. not everyone knows the difference or is strict on it or have heard of all 3 variants or not all have a strict differentiation that this or that pronunciation means this specifically, but some do have a specific differentiation but it also may differ how people differentiate it, especially per generation and maybe place. people also have a different idea of which and why they use either "chinese filipino" or "filipino chinese" or "tsinoy" or "chinoy". that ambiguity also extends to this one on "lan-nang" / "lan-lang" / "nan-nang" for people cuz it's not clarified a lot in many families and is usually entirely based on which word they hear more and unknowingly pass on whichever way they understood that. for me at least, I usually only hear "lan-nang" and "lan-lang", never "nan-nang", then maybe rarely "lan-e-lang", then I think there was maybe an old lady with a thick accent too before that I heard sounded more like "ran-rang". it gets weird like that lol. For many families, I'd believe more that when they say "lan-nang" then they're most likely referring to chinese filipino specifically, but the boomer gen and older may also just mean chinese in general and since filchi are mostly the "chinese" people they meet in life in ph then it all basically coincides the same to many people. If people do this long enough for those specific senses they heard long enough, that's when the meanings feel "off" when it then gets used by someone differently, but people are distributed enough with no standard that how they developed that idea in their mind varies. From what I have experienced so far, most people I expect they will use "lan-nang" or "nan-nang" as the ethnonym or proper noun, then the other general literal common noun "our own people" sense (if they ever have an opportunity of using that if somehow they speak for their inclusive group somewhere) goes to the "lan-lang" one, but in reality most likely, people will confuse them all in varying degrees in most families since it's never clear and reliant on frequency of use, tho this is the frequency I picked up on at least around my family and whoever old people in churches and associations.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 02:28, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Are you sure they're not just using 咱的儂, the last syllable being obviously "lang" and not "nang"? Have you ever heard the word "Lan-nang" or "Nan-nang" used to mean "tauhan natin" (emphasis on the last syllable being "nang" and not "lang")? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:13, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mar vin kaiser: As I said, "lan-lang"(咱儂) or "lan-e-lang"(咱的儂) is literally "our people" or "tauhan natin" in tagalog, which refers to any inclusive group or community or gang or company or organization of our own, so: our employees, our students, our pupils, our townspeople, our villagers, our churchmates, our organization members, our anything of our own, not just some family. It encompasses so much that people keep using it enough that the pronunciation even starts to differ that it became a common ethnonym since speakers keep referring to anything inclusive of the chinese speaker as our own. So for example, 咱儂鬥相共 lan-lang tau-saⁿ-kang can connote to so much. Usually for me at least, I hear it used by some small family business owners use it to refer to our or their employees especially the old family businesses that deal with many manual labor employees like hardwares or factories or printing press. --Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:50, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mlgc1998: Just to rephrase the question, have you ever heard 咱儂 used to refer to a specific family excluding outsiders, or something like that? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)