Module talk:ta-IPA

Fixes

ச் is pronounced as [ʃ] or [tʃ] in some dialects particularly Brahmin (and Palakkadan?) for eg. pēcu as [pe:ʃɯ] instead of [peːsɯ] and [ʃaɾi] instead of [saɾi].

There is also the lenition of plosives intervocalically (including dialectal differences like /k/ as [ɣ] in TN Tamil and [x] in SL Tamil).

I think some dialects dont have the -r ending to ற்ற் (like some SL dialects?) so just [t:] not [t:r], not sure though.

And Tamil doesnt have phonemic gemination as in there isnt /C, C:/ doubled consonants are just 2 adjacent same consonants + need syllabication like பட்டாளம் as [paʈ.'ʈaː.ɭam] instead of [paʈ:aːɭam]. AleksiB 1945 (talk) 09:21, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@AleksiB 1945 Yes, people do pronunce ச (ca) either as /tʃa/ or as /sa/ depending on the dialect, but the consonent ச் (c) on it's own without the vowel is always pronunced as /tʃ/ and never /s/. And that is the only instance where you'd see the usage of ஸ் (s). Even then, native Tamil words don't need the /s/ sound (not /sa/). In northern Tamil dialects of India (and in SEA), /sa/ is the commonly used pronunciation and when you go down south (the Indian dialects), it changes to /tʃa/. And as for /ʃa/, the Kerala bordering regions (the western and some southern dialects) use it in spoken Tamil, but in formal (or written) usage, it's always /sa/ and not even /tʃa/.

As for ற்ற (ṟṟa), like I mentioned earier, it's /t̺ʳə/ in the northern dialects (and formal usage) and /t̺ə/ in southern dialects (similar to Malayalam റ്റ (ṟṟa)). Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 15:37, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

This is wrong. Refer to Schiffman. /c/ word initially in most non-Brahmin dialects is [s], /s/, the phoneme is indeed borrowed but /c/ takes the [s] form in most dialects initially as well as intervocalically. As for /ṟṟ/, it is not only dialectal but also depends on the adjacent vowels. Most common form of it in spoken Tamil is [tt].

Also, spoken Tamil entries don't even exist yet on Wiktionary. Only literary Tamil entries do, with some colloquialisms. While LT pronunciation is not completely standardised and can change depending on the ST dialect of the speaker, it is mostly standard.

– SourceIsOpen (talk) 01:11, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@SourceIsOpen Spoken Tamil entries do exist in Wiktionary, I have come across quite a lot even. They are marked as 'colloquial', 'informal' or sometimes as 'spoken'. I have contributed some words too, usually they are marked as alternative forms of the standard entry. Emmanuel Asbon (talk) 05:01, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

@Emmanuel Asbon @SourceIsOpen

/t͡ɕ/ vs /s/

The Tamil letter ச் is pronounced /t͡ɕ/ or /s/ depending on location, caste and/or position. However, to quote Wikipedia, "there are words where the pronunciation is fixed, ceṉṉai and sēlam can't be pronounced as [senːaɪ̯] and [t͡ʃeːlam]". While this IPA module gives the correct pronunciation of ceṉṉai (/t͡ɕenːaɪ̯/), the same is not true for sēlam if the S is spelt with the letter ச் (the module gives me /t͡ɕeːlam/). I don't have an advanced knowledge in Tamil, let alone being a native speaker, but I've come across these issues in Wiktionary while looking for some Tamil words. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 14:18, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

On it's own, ச் is pronounced as /t͡ɕ/. And never as /s/. Only when it's accompanied by a vowel sound, this behaviour of switching between /s/ and /t͡ɕ/ occurs. Native Tamil words mostly never has the sound /s/, and even for borrowings, /s/ is replaced with a close alternative, such as: श्वास (śvāsa) => சுவாசம் (cuvācam), स्नेह (sneha) => சினேகம் (ciṉēkam), विश्वास (viśvāsa) => விசுவாசம் (vicuvācam). But in later times, after the Grantha letters have been incorporated into the Tamil alphabet (see வடமொழி எழுத்து (vaṭamoḻi eḻuttu)), people started using ஸ் (s) to represent /s/ (And this is the only place you'd see the usage of ஸ் in Tamil, otherwise it's very rare to see this in a Tamil transcription). But it's still only used to write transliterations of English or Sanskrit words in advertisements. So, note the difference: ச (ca) can be /sa/ or /t͡ɕa/, but ச் (c) is always /t͡ɕ/. Godwithus (talk) 14:39, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

And for the pronunciation of சென்னை (ceṉṉai), /t͡ɕenːaɪ̯/, /senːaɪ̯/ are both correct, but /t͡ɕenːaɪ̯/ is the preferred one, it's not wrong to pronounce it as /senːaɪ̯/. The same goes for Selam. Godwithus (talk) 14:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)