Module talk:pi-decl/noun/Lana

SIGN OO

As far as I am aware, U+1A70 TAI THAM VOWEL SIGN OO does not occur in Pali. Therefore, for example, the nominative singular of ᨵᨾ᩠ᨾ (dhamma) is not ᨵᨾ᩠ᨾᩰ but ᨵᨾ᩠ᨾᩮᩣ (dhammo). I intend to replace all occurrences of the vowel ᨠᩰ with ᨠᩮᩣ. -- RichardW57 (talk) 01:15, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I changed it only in translit module. Sorry for forgetting this. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:46, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Minor correction: It's argued that the independent vowel for /o/ should be ᩋᩰ <U+1A4B TAI THAM LETTER A, U+1A70> for Northern Thai usage rather than ᩒ <U+1A52 TAI THAM LETTER OO>. This correction has no effect on my intended changes to this module.

Nope. 1A52 is specially made to use with Pali/Sanskrit loanwords at the beginning of words, so it must be used in Pali/Sanskrit forms as well. 1A4B+1A70 is just used for traditional (Tai) words. If you have a pretty font, you will see the 'O' appears as <letter a> and <medial r> in front, that is equivalent to 1A52. However, Lanna people actually use both forms randomly; we must have a standard. --Octahedron80 (talk) 01:43, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

And if you have a Unicode-non-compliant font, it may render 1A4B+1A70 as though it were U+1A52. That behaviour is wrong.

@Octahedron80: U+1A52 was included in the Unicode repertoire for the benefit of the Tai Khün and Tai Lü. The Tai Khün were used to get the Lanna script encoded in the BMP. U+1A52 was meant to be used when it is visually distinct from 1A4B+1A70. (Remember, there is no LETTER AA because it would be indistinguishable from 1A4B+1A63.) The encoding proposals clearly state that U+1A52 is not used in Northern Thai. (If it is, I'm surprised the MFL doesn't use it.)

Now, how a font designed for Northern Thai should handle U+1A52 is a good question. My preference is to show it looking like, but not necessarily the same as, 1A4B+1A55. (I recall seeing differences between the two sequences.) The Hariphunchai font (targeted at Northern Thailand) shows it the same as 1A4B+1A70 - an ordinary combination of consonant and vowel, which is consistent with the Northern Thai depictions of the 8 independent vowels for Pali that I have seen. RichardW57m (talk)

I may be confused with Tai Khun and Tai Lu because they write very similar. Since Northern Thai, Tai Khun, and Tai Lu also share the same script, both forms are possible to appear in Pali either.--Octahedron80 (talk) 13:01, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

@AryamanA: As to 'we must have a standard', Wiktionary seems to have one. It is to refer the reader to the Latin script form as much as possible. For a formal policy, we have WT:CFI#Spellings 'Misspellings, common misspellings and variant spellings: Rare misspellings should be excluded while common misspellings should be included.' For examples of practice from English, see grey v. gray, colour v. color and separate v. seperate. Now, we will need to evolve a standard for handling Pali regionalisms (Duroiselle records Sinhalese Pali as having words unknown elsewhere) - do they get Roman script lemmas? Lemmas for all scripts? (The English ban on lemmas for possessives needs to be extended in some form to Pali.) I'm seeing a lot of erroneous gemination in Northern Thai Pali. That may qualify for inclusion. These policies probably need to be discussed in the WT:Beer Parlour. RichardW57m (talk) 11:49, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

@Octahedron80, @AryamanA: I have now implemented the change - 40 entries in all. I created testcases to check that I made no other changes. RichardW57 (talk) 11:40, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

You have done it well.--Octahedron80 (talk) 01:51, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

I believe I made one mistake. The disyllabic nominative plural of masculine u-stems should really be '⌫ᩅᩮᩤ'. I am leaving it as '⌫ᩅᩮᩣ' for now because that is converted in tall AA generation, and it would be appropriate for Lao Pali ᨴᩣᨲᩅᩮᩣ 'donors' if a stem ᨴᩣᨲᩩ automatically disabled tall AA generation. RichardW57 (talk) 14:54, 2 October 2018 (UTC)