Module talk:labels/data/lang/pa

Discussion moved from WT:Beer_parlour/2024/June#Jatki_and_Western_Punjabi.

Western vs Eastern as opposed to Pakistan vs India

These two sets of terms need to be distinguished. Lahnda Punjab ≠ Lahnda Punjabi, and Charhda Punjab ≠ Charhda Punjabi.

Firstly; Western vs Eastern.

• Western Punjabi or Lahnda Punjabi refers to the dialects Jhangli, Shahpuri, Dhanni and by extent Saraiki, Hindko and Pahari-Potwari. Jhangli is spoken as far east as Fazilka in Charhda Punjab (India).
• Eastern Punjabi or Charhda Punjabi refers to the dialects Majhi, Malwai, Doabi and Puadhi. The majority of Majhi is spoken in Lahnda Punjab (Pakistan).

They are two distinct groups, and thus have many features which lead to having to label some entries as Charhda or Lahnda (rather than India or Pakistan). Take these two sets of corresponding words:

• Lahnda: /trai/, /saiṇā/, /troṛṇā/, /truṭṭṇā/, /hā̃h/
• Charhda: /tinn/, /sauṇā/, /toṛṇā/, /ṭuṭṭṇā/, /hiyā̃/

Although they do differ in vocabulary, the greatest difference is in their grammar.

Now; Pakistan vs India. This distinction usually entails differing choices in formal and/or religious vocabulary. It is the one currently supported by the template.

• (Pakistan) should include words like صدر مملکت (ṣadr-e mumlikat)
• (India) should include mostly learned borrowings such as ਗਣਤੰਤਰ (gaṇtantar), ਦਿਵਸ (divas), ਕ੍ਰੋਧ (krodh) etc.

Currently, typing in Western or Eastern leaves you with (Western) and (Eastern) respectively, unmerciful to the linguistic structure of Punjabi. I have two ideas to combat this:

1. Either swap the Western/Eastern label for the dialectal distinction (rather than national distinction) or do the same for Lahnda/Charhda
2. Create a new label to refer to Western and Eastern dialects, perhaps something like (eastern dialects) and (western dialects), etc.

Thoughts? OblivionKhorasan (talk) 13:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@OblivionKhorasan: – I called them Pakistan, and India, respectively, because people might not understand what constitutes as 'Eastern dialects' or 'Western Dialects'. However, I'm not opposed to labelling them as 'Western' or 'Eastern – I've actually swapped them a couple of times, previously.

• Currently, typing in Western or Eastern leaves you with (Pakistan) and (India) respectively, unmerciful to the linguistic structure of Punjabi. I have two ideas to combat this – that's fine by me, but just make sure the lemmas in Category:Indian Punjabi and Category:Pakistani Punjabi have been purged or correctly labelled. نعم البدل (talk) 16:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@OblivionKhorasan, نعم البدل:

I called them Pakistan, and India, respectively, because people might not understand what constitutes as 'Eastern dialects' or 'Western Dialects'.

• Whether people understand what constitutes as 'Eastern dialects' (Charhda) or 'Western Dialects' (Lahnda) shouldn’t really matter. If that distinction is more linguistically accurate for terms that are not formal and/or religious, then that should be used instead of than the country labels India and Pakistan.
• The India vs Pakistan distinction still being used for formal terms would make sense due to the physical separation of the two societies in modern times.
• However, extending this to religious terms that would be under the assumption that Sikh and Hindu terms are Indian, and Islamic terms are Pakistani. While this may be correct in most cases, there are certainly a minority of Punjabi Muslims in India and Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan.

• Western Punjabi or Lahnda Punjabi refers to the dialects Jhangli, Shahpuri, Dhanni and by extent Saraiki, Hindko and Pahari-Potwari
• the … Lahnda dialects (Saraiki, Pahari-Potwari, Northern and Southern Hindko) get their own language codes.

• So, Western Punjabi (Jatki language?) would then be just be Jhangli, Shahpuri, Dhanni under the Punjabi language header, even if these varieties aren’t given a separate language code as proposed in the Beer Parlour post.

make sure the lemmas in Category:Indian Punjabi and Category:Pakistani Punjabi have been purged or correctly labelled

• What this refers to make sure that the split discussed here is actually reflected in entries.

Kutchkutch (talk) 22:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)