Category talk:Prakrit language

Proposal for having {{pra-sc}} for Prakrit in Devanagari

(Notifying AryamanA, Kutchkutch, Bhagadatta, Msasag): I got this idea from Old Marathi entries. Since Prakrit is mostly a dead language with not-so-much attestation, it'll be hard to find attestation for a term in any other scripts like Gujarati, Modi, Gurmukhi in which Prakrit lects may have been written at some point in the past. Here's what I propose:

There'll be two scripts for Prakrit: Brahmi (the current one, which will be the main) and Devanagari (the one in which nowadays Prakrit is written, as in dictionaries and others). And we'll have Devanagari soft redirects Prakrit entries with {{pra-sc}} regardless of attestation because:

1. Most people will search for Prakrit in Devanagari.
2. {{R:pra:Sheth}} and some other Prakrit dictionaries use Devanagari.

Also @Inqilābī 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 14:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose for well known issues. Most people will search for Prakrit in Devanagari.: in fact, Devanagari is hardly used to write Pali because the language is not popular in India (where Sanskrit takes its stead; Buddhism has declined there), but it is widely used in Southeast Asia & Ceylon, as the liturgical language of Theravada Buddhism; as such readers from those lands are more likely read our Pali entries. I know not if Pali entries were created in Latin from the beginning, but Latin script entries seems to be a compromise seeing as the wide usage of multiple local scripts (Sinhalese, Khmer, Lao, Thai, etc.). Let the red link in the Alternative scripts section remain red; if you find attestations in non-Latin scripts, you can always create entries in those scripts. -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 17:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Inqilābī: Pali?? This is Prakrit we're talking about. You can already see {{R:pra:Sheth}} uses Devanagari. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 01:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

  @SodhakSH: Oh I am so sorry, owing to fever I am so delirious that I mistook Prakrit for Pali. But my point regarding red links still stands, and I still oppose your proposal on the grounds that a soft redirect would forbid the addition of Devanagari quotations in Devanagari-script entries. And as far as I remember, Old Marathi does not have redirects for Devanagari… -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 03:32, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• @Inqilābī: What about a template {{pra-sc}} like {{omr-sc}} instead of redirects? It would allow adding quotations in Devanagari. And get well soon... 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 05:34, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

  @SodhakSH: Still I do not agree with you. Is Prakrit any literary language to the same degree as Sanskrit or Pali? So I do not understand what you actually mean by the widespread use of Devanagari. Sheth is just a Maharashtri Prakrit (I hope I named the lect correctly), what about Magadhi Prakrit then?— people would search in Eastern Nagari or Oria scripts as well. It would be biased to have Devanagari entries. -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 05:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC) P.S. Notwithstanding, since Latin is widely used in dictionaries and linguistic treatises, we may have alternative script entries in the Latin script. I believe this would make it easier to search Prakrit words.

Since many prayer books in the Prakrits use the Devanagari script, I think Prakrit's relation to Devanagari is more or less the same as Sanskrit's relation to Devanagari. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have soft redirects in Devanagari. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 06:21, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Inqilābī, Sheth is not only Maharashtri; it also mentions Shauraseni by "शौ". Regarding, "people would search in Eastern Nagari or Oria", they'd mostly search in Devanagari, the script used most widely for Sanskrit. Also, can you mention anywhere Prakrit being taught in/using Eastern Nagari or Oria? For Devanagari, there is {{R:pra:Sheth}}, some online websites and so, and videos on YT teaching Prakrit. Agreed with Bhagadatta. Kutchkutch, your thoughts? 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 06:51, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Inqilābī, SodhakSH: Nagari/Devanagari was the primary script for classical Prakrit from c. 500 CE to c. 1800 after Brahmi became extinct c. 500 CE. Therefore, ignoring Latin transcriptions, Devanagari appears to be the most commonly used script for Prakrit. It would be interesting to see Prakrit being taught/used Eastern Nagari or Oria.

@Bhagadatta: prakrit.info/prakrit/ has a Kannada script option in the upper right-hand corner, so could there be Kannada script redirects? Kutchkutch (talk) 09:00, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Ho yes! Western Karnataka happens to have an elaborate Jain heritage. It is possible that Jain prayers in Prakrit were written in the Kannada script during that period. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 10:10, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: This website is not opening I don't know why. Is it a dictionary, like {{R:pra:Sheth}}, which attests a large number of Prakrit words? 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 10:31, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@SodhakSH: It is not a dictionary. Other than the Phonology+Morphology pages, the focus of the website is on literature. Kutchkutch (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Msasag: D’you know of Magadhi Prakrit literature or any linguistic treatises or dictionaries that employ the Eastern Nagari script to transliterate the Prakrit terms? -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 17:13, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Inqilābī I don't know. Msasag (talk) 07:26, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Labels from descendants

@SodhakSH: These labels should be:

the lects that the sources explicitly indicate or

the lects that can be deduced by reasoning based on known/agreed upon correspondences.

For example, many of the Sauraseni terms in CAT:Hindi terms inherited from Sauraseni Prakrit are deduced by reasoning based on known/agreed upon correspondences. Known/agreed upon correspondences could be written somewhere such as Wiktionary:About Prakrit. This differs from reconstructed terms such as *𑀲𑀯𑀸𑀁𑀕 (*savāṃga) at स्वाँग (svāṅg) in that reconstructed terms would not be attested any lect, whereas known/agreed upon correspondences extend the application of attested terms.

If there are any labels next to the definition or headword, the descendants section would not be categorised by lect. If there are no labels next to the definition or headword, the descendants section would be categorised by lect.

The other parts of the entry could be more liberal. For example, even though 𑀩𑀼𑀪𑀼𑀓𑁆𑀔𑀸 (bubhukkhā) and 𑀅𑀳𑀼𑀡𑀸 (ahuṇā) would not have the Paisaci label, the Paisaci descendants can still go in their descendants sections. 𑀉𑀝𑁆𑀝 (uṭṭa) could have Maharastri declension and descendants even if it doesn't have the Maharastri label. Kutchkutch (talk) 09:00, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Thanks. Should words like 𑀩𑀼𑀪𑀼𑀓𑁆𑀔𑀸 be put into categories CAT:Sauraseni Prakrit and others? 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 10:31, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@SodhakSH: Since {{R:inc:Pischel|264}} indicates 𑀩𑀼𑀪𑀼𑀓𑁆𑀔𑀸 as Sauraseni, it would only have the Sauraseni label. {{R:pra:Sheth|भुक्खा}} is indicated as Maharastri with महा. Kutchkutch (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Renaming a few lects

Kutchkutch, would you change the canonical names of these etymology-only codes:

• Maharastri Prakrit —> Maharashtri Prakrit
• Sauraseni Prakrit –> Shauraseni Prakrit
• Paisaci Prakrit –> Paishachi Prakrit

  Reason: similar transliteration system for both the terms: <LECT> and Prakrit. I think this is better than having one term (Sauraseni) transliterated using IAST (- diacritics) and the other (Prakrit) using Hunterian transliteration (not iast-diacritics [Prakrta]). Even Wikipedia uses these - see Paishachi, Maharashtri Prakrit and Shauraseni Prakrit. This is, as it is, a really minor change. See also diff: please move CAT:Jain Maharastri, CAT:Paisaci Prakrit, CAT:Maharastri Prakrit and CAT:Sauraseni Prakrit to CAT:Jain Maharashtri, CAT:Paishachi Prakrit, CAT:Maharashtri Prakrit and CAT:Shauraseni Prakrit respectively, without redirects. Thanks. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 10:31, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@SodhakSH: There's probably a reason why AryamanA didn't add the hs in 5+ years of documenting Prakrit, so perhaps you should ask AryamanA first. Kutchkutch (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@AryamanA: Any particular reason? @Bhagadatta, Inqilābī 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 11:25, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@SodhakSH: Likely because we are removing the diacritics to name the languages: Śaurasenī --> Sauraseni, & likewise for others. Though I would support the employ of diacritics. But I am not in favour of sh, ch; they are being used by the government, or in WhatsApp chats, and not in linguistic works. -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 16:35, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: Why Prakrit then? It should be Prākṛta or Prakrta, with your logic. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 01:18, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

@SodhakSH: Sorry, I did not have time to response back then. Sanskrit and Prakrit are well-established English words, whereas the names of the Prakrit lects are more recent transliterations. -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 10:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: Whatever, it is strange to see Hindi-transliteration/x/Sanskrit-transliteration. Also @AryamanA, Kutchkutch 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 11:42, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@SodhakSH: Although it is strange to see Hindi × Sanskrit-transliteration, Inqilābī's explanation makes sense, especially:

sh, ch; they are being used by the government, or in WhatsApp chats, and not in linguistic works … Sanskrit and Prakrit are well-established English words, whereas the names of the Prakrit lects are more recent transliterations. Kutchkutch (talk) 11:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

All right, then; fine. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 12:07, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@SodhakSH: What d’you mean by ‘Hindi × Sanskrit-transliteration’? -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 12:27, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

• (Notifying AryamanA, Kutchkutch, Bhagadatta, Msasag): 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 10:35, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@SodhakSH: I don't have a preference for either. I'll support whichever naming system prevails. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 11:23, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: it means that one term transliterated as in Hindi (Prakrit) and the other transliterated as in Sanskrit. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 12:47, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Scope

@SodhakSH The {{notice}} at Wiktionary:About Prakrit only mentioned the early and middle phases since the later phase refers to the Apabhramsas, which are currently not included in Category:Prakrit languages. The status of Kāmarūpī is unclear since at Category talk:Prakrit languages Msasag said:

Kamarupi Prakrit is mostly an Apabhramsa for attested vocabulary.

Inqilābī: Then why is it called a Prakrit? Should it not be called “Kamarupi Apabhramsa? Kutchkutch (talk) 13:12, 20 May 2021 (UTC)