Category talk:Hindustani languages

Etymology, Descendants

@AryamanA, now that we have this category, should we change the way we present our etymologies involving Hindustani (borrowed from {{bor|und|hi|TERM}} / {{bor|und|ur|TERM}} → borrowed from {{bor|und|inc-hnd}} {{m|hi|TERM}} / {{m|ur|TERM}})? This new format truly looks more handsome. Also, the language code does not work in the Descendants section, so please edit the modules to that effect! — inqilābī ^{[ inqilāb zindabād ]} 21:42, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, why is the language name in the plural? — inqilābī ^{[ inqilāb zindabād ]} 21:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: Hmm, so this is a language family code, not a language code (hence the plural). I think the best solution would be to create an etymology-only code for Hindustani. I like the format that you have suggested. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 03:26, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA, Inqilābī Yes, the proposed changes are much needed (somewhat reminiscent of User_talk:DerekWinters#Braj). An etymology-only code could also allow replacing

• Hindustani:

  Deccani: پانی (pānī)

  Hindi: पानी (pānī)

  Urdu: پانی (pānī)

with this

• {{desc|inc-hnd}}

  Deccani: پانی (pānī)

  Hindi: पानी (pānī)

  Urdu: پانی (pānī)

and replacing

• {{tooltip|borrowed|→}} Hindustani:

  Hindi: लफ़्ज़ (lafz)

  Urdu: لَفْظ (lafz)

with this

• {{desc|inc-hnd|bor=1}}

  Hindi: लफ़्ज़ (lafz)

  Urdu: لَفْظ (lafz) Kutchkutch (talk) 09:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA, Inqilābī User:Msasag's style for etymology sections is {{w|Hindustani language|Hindustani}} {{m|hi|TERM}} / {{m|ur|TERM}}.

How does/should Wiktionary treat CAT:Hyderabadi Hindi / CAT:Hyderabadi Urdu (w:Urdu in Aurangabad etc) vis-à-vis CAT:Deccani language?.

ʻIt differs from Hindustani because of the strong influence of Marathi, Telugu and Kannadaʼ

c:File:Hindustani_vs_Deccani.png is a geographic comparison between Khariboli and Deccani. The reddish region within the Deccani area tries to show the influence of Khariboli on CAT:Bombay Hindi.

ʻSuniti Kumar Chattopadhyay also maintained that it was Deccani that established the use of Khari Boli replacing Braj in the North.ʼ Kutchkutch (talk) 12:01, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Thank you for bringing CAT:Hyderabadi Hindi / CAT:Hyderabadi Urdu to our attention! Hyderabadi Hindustani (actually Hyderabadi Deccani) is clearly a Deccani lect, and therefor should be categorized under CAT:Deccani language as CAT:Regional Deccani rather than under Hindi or Urdu. Bombay Hindi is probably OK as is (though I do not know if Bombay Hindi was originally a Deccani lect). (@AryamanA) — inqilābī ^{[ inqilāb zindabād ]} 21:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: Thanks for the reply!

Since Hindi and Urdu are the standardised registers of Hindustani, they rightly deserve to get most of the attention.

However, if the perspective is broadened to non-standardised registers, CAT:Hyderabadi Hindi / CAT:Hyderabadi Urdu could possibly be considered as a third register. (There's also Dhakaiya Urdu, Urdu in the United Kingdom, Haflong Hindi, etc). The issue with these non-standardised registers is that there doesn't appear to be enough resources about them.

Although Deccani at some point in time may have have been slightly different from Khariboli, once Braj displaced Khariboli in the North, Deccani seems to have transitioned towards standardised Khariboli. The changes that you suggest seem to make sense. CAT:Deccani_language currently indicates it as a descendant of Urdu.

Hyderabadi Urdu: Plurality

The suffix "an" is often used to mark plurality. The letter 'n' is an almost silent nasal stop. For example, Log (people) would become Logaan.

Hyderabadi Urdu: ā → a and ū → u

For example, instead of "aadmi" (man) or "raasta" (path) in Orthodox Urdu, Hyderabadi would use "admi" and "rasta." Similarly "bhool" (to forget), "toot" (to break) and "chooriyan" (bangles) is "bhul", "tut" and "churyan" in Hyderabadi.

Hyderabadi Urdu: Lexicon

Hallu - Slow and اِچ "ich" are similar to Marathi (हळू (haḷū), Hindi -ईच (-īc) < Marathi -च (-ca))

Hona - to want, instead of chahiye in Orthodox Urdu

Although Bombay Hindi is geographically adjacent to the Deccani region, since it is significantly influenced by Hindi Belt speakers, Bombay Hindi is probably OK as is.

Interestingly, c:File:Hindustani_vs_Deccani.png doesn't include much of Gujarat, Sindh, Punjab, Kashmir, Orissa, Bengal and Northeast India. Perhaps it doesn't include those regions since there are fewer L1 Hindi speakers in those areas according to c:File:Hindi 2011 Indian Census by district.svg . Kutchkutch (talk) 11:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch, Inqilābī: I'll go ahead and make an etym-only code. Hyderabadi Urdu is most certainly Dakkhani (also, we need to decide whether Deccani is an acceptable name, it seems somewhat dated). Bombay Hindi is not a continuation of Dakkhani in the South; as you know, Mumbai was founded by the Europeans, and become a metropolis much after the golden age of Dakkhani (which was espoused by Deccan Sultanates). The modern Bombay Hindi is a more recent phenomenon, reflecting Delhi-area Hindi and Marathi (+Gujarati, Konkani, English, and the cosmopolitan character of Mumbai). —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 19:25, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA: Hyderabadi Urdu IS Dakkhani and I prefer the latter term because of two reasons: "Hyderabadi Urdu" implies that this language is a dialect of standard Urdu (I think I even saw Wikipedia claim this somewhere) which it is not. It has a cognate development to Urdu. And it has lesser Persian/Arabic loanwords than Urdu, even lesser than Hindi you might say. This language is instead influenced by Marathi, Konkani and Kannada. Secondly the term Hyderabadi Urdu suggests that this is spoken only in Hyderabad or nearby areas but in reality it is spoken in north Karnataka and in Goa too. Goan Muslims speak a variety of Dakkhani as their mother tongue. Some more interesting features of Dakkhani: 1st pers. dat singular is मझे instead of standard मुझे. Phrases like मैं आता हूँ are collapsed into मैं आतूं. The prohibitive particle is नको (borrowed from Marathi) instead of मत. Perfect indicative is formed by attaching the suffix -yā to the stem e.g.: मैं कर्या in place of मैंने किया. Some varieties may have these and some may not because the Dakkhani spoken in Goa differs slightly from that spoken in north Karnataka which is again slightly different from Hyderabadi Dakkhani. -- Bhagadatta^(talk) 01:26, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA: The key part of your analysis of your historical analysis of Bombay Hindi is:

Bombay Hindi is not a continuation of Dakkhani in the South... Mumbai...bec[a]me a metropolis much after the golden age of Dakkhani

Here's a summary of pre-European Mumbai from Wikipedia:

Bimbakhyan ("The story of Bimba"), an old Marathi language poem, states that the king Bhima of Mahikavati came to Konkan from Anahilavada in 1294 CE...with a number of people...from what later became Daulatabad Fort...the islands were later ruled by [Bimba's son]'s brother-in-law for 17 years till 1348.

The Muslim rulers of Gujarat captured the islands in 1348, and they were later governed by the Gujarat Sultanate from 1391 to 1534 with intermittent conquests by the Bahamani Sultanate...the seven islands were surrendered to the Portuguese on 25 October 1535, ending the Islamic rule in Mumbai.

Although Deccani Hindustani may have been spoken in Mumbai at some point, there seems no evidence of CAT:Bombay Hindi being a continuation of Deccani Hindustani.

The renaming of Deccani was first proposed at WT:Beer_parlour/2018/May#Renaming_"Deccani"_dcc with the very convincing reasoning that

Dakhini is overwhelmingly the more common term in modern literature (not to mention that is the name the speakers use).

However, the conclusion of User:-sche's analysis was:

I see only 15 [hits] for "Dakhini language"...vs 50+ for "Deccani language"..."Deccani Urdu" also outpaces "Dakhini Urdu"

[T]here was a decline in use of "Deccani" and slight rise in "Dakhini" around 1990, but "Deccani" still outpaces "Dakhini", though it may be helped by the fact that it refers also to things other than the language. (The only reference work I can find which uses either spelling in the title is Ruth Laila Schmidt's 1981 Dakhini Urdu: History and Structure)

[T]he case for a rename is not nearly as clear as you suggest

@Bhagadatta On your user page you say that you that you speak the

Deccani dialect (specifically, the Goan variety of the Deccani dialect of Hindustani).

That suggests that the Goan variety of Hindustani may be a continuation of Deccani.

youtu.be/D1bXtznpcTc (GOA365 - Marathi-speaking only 10% in Goa, but Hindi-speaking more than Marathi in South Goa) has a Konkani-Marathi-Hindi Break Up and a Urdu-South Indian languages table.

When Khariboli Hindustani was transplanted to the Deccan, especially during shifting of the sultanate's capital from Delhi to Daulatabad in 1327, the first Deccan language that it encountered must have been Marathi.

He ordered a forced migration of the Muslim population of Delhi, including his royal family, the nobles, Syeds, Sheikhs and 'Ulema to settle in Daulatabad.

The later historical events led to contact with Kannada, Telugu and Konkani.

Deccani Hindustani also had an effect on the languages of the Deccan. Here are examples for Marathi that are presented in a thesis:

The Delhi Muslim rulers that arrived in Maharastra at the end of the 13th century introduced the first donor point of contact for Perso-Arabic loans. The geographic proximity of Marathi to Dakhni resulted in a second donor point of contact for Perso-Arabic loans that was distinct from the Delhi point of contact. In some cases, this is evident from the differences in the phonological adaptations of specific loans, as in:

Marathi हुशार (huśār) vs Hindi होशियार (hośiyār)

Marathi मोफत (mophat) vs Hindi मुफ़्त (muft)

In other cases, we see that Persian loans with identical semantic affinity and different usage frequencies in different substrates were adapted in both languages. Compare the word for ʻresponsibleʼ:

Marathi जबाबदार (jabābdār) vs Hindi ज़िम्मेदार (zimmedār)

It's worth noting that the earliest ballad composed to celebrate the deeds of Shivaji is written in a Marathi so Persianised that virtually no modern Maharastrian can read it with ease. Kutchkutch (talk) 12:02, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Yeah, as I said, Dakhini itself is a collection of similar sounding yet distinct dialects; of which Goan Deccani is one. These varieties sound the same to a non speaker and are simply known by a single term "Muslim dialect of Hindi" in Goa & Karnataka. The ones found in Karnataka are recognizable by their use of the particle -सो (so) - to mark the progressive present indicative of verbs, as in करते सो हैं: "they are doing". Now Hyderabadi Deccani is distinct in that the dative/accusative postposition is कु instead of को. Hindustani/Hindi of any kind is not native to Goa and unlike Goan Catholics who are ethnic Goans, I believe most if not all Muslims in Goa (Who are the primary speakers of Goan Dakhini) ultimately trace their ancestry to north Karnataka. They likely came to Goa when it was under the Bijapur Sultanate and brought their language with them from Bijapur. So if we got this right, it means that Dakhini resulted when Khariboli before becoming Hindustani was exposed to Marathi, Kannada and other Deccan languages. This means of course that we should not be considering Deccani as a variant/descendant of Urdu or Hindi as it is cognate with Hindi-Urdu, not descended from it. -- Bhagadatta^(talk) 13:45, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Kutchkutch, I have now redirected CAT:Hyderabadi Urdu to CAT:Hyderabadi Deccani; since I have no knowledge of the Arabic script (while you have), could you please help to create new Deccani entries by copying from the entries listed in CAT:Hyderabadi Hindi (“Hindi” makes no sense here because Deccani is not written in the Devanāgarī script)? Thank you. — inqilābī ^{[ inqilāb zindabād ]} 21:47, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Inqilābī

1. नक्को (nakko) → نَکّو  Done
2. हौ (hau) → ہَو  Done
3. कू (kū) = کُو
4. क्या होना (kyā honā) → کْیَا ہونَا  Done

There's a few issues with:

creat[ing] new Deccani entries [in the Arabic script] by copying from the entries listed in CAT:Hyderabadi Hindi

For example, Wikipedia spells -ईच (-īc) as اِچ. However:

-ईच (-īc) = -اِیچ

اِچ = इच

-इच (-ic) is listed as an alternate form of -ईच (-īc).

Wikipedia spells कायको (kāyko) as کاہے کو (it could also be کائے کو or کیکو (see this)

There's also a Persian etymon for नक्को (nakko) in addition to the Marathi word. It might be:

1. نکو (nekô) at نکونام (nekônâm)
2. نیکو (nêku), نکو (neku): the alternative forms of نیک (nêk) (→ Hindi नेक (nek))
3. According to this, it's نکن (nakon).

You could start learning about the Arabic script as it used for Urdu at https://www.learning-hindi.com/urdu and Urdu alphabet.

What makes reading Urdu more difficult than Hindi or English is that these vowel markers (the dashes above the letters) are very rarely written, you only really see them in in children’s books and religious writings. So this means you often have to know of simply 'guess’ what the vowel should be! In English this would be as if we always wrote like this:

ʻths ’s wht wrds lk lk wtht vwls, cn y stll rd ’t?ʼ

ʻthis is what words look like without vowels, can you still read it?ʼ Kutchkutch (talk) 12:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA Perhaps if you add the following to MOD:languages/data3/d:

entry_name = {from = u(0x064B) ... u(0x0658)}, to = {}} ,

the {{head|head=}} parameter could be used for dcc Kutchkutch (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA, as proposed before, inc-hnd is needed to function in the Descendants section as well. Would be very helpful not only because ’tis tiresome to type “Hindustani” all the time, but also parameters for (learned) borrowings, calques, &c. could be supported. — inqilābī ^{‹inqilāb·zinda·bād›} 20:41, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

@AryamanA: Could you please spare a while and fix the Descendants thing? Thanks! — inqilābī ^{‹inqilāb·zinda·bād›} 11:49, 14 December 2020 (UTC)