Appendix talk:I am (ethnicity)

Please help

Pls help formatting, it's a total failure! --Anatoli 12:37, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Fixed now, thanks to Daniel. --Anatoli 01:59, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

"I am English"

Would even an Englishman say this, as opposed to "I am British"?​—msh210℠ 16:22, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure how to interpret the 'even' but no we say "I'm" unless deliberately stressing the am. Perhaps the idea is to make it clear that it's a pronoun and a verb form, whereas I'm appears to be one word. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Just realized I've made a complete hash of my reply. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:26, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I say "British", because I'm aware that the "country" I live in has more than one country in it (e.g. my passport also says "British"). But I imagine most people would say "English" because it's more specific (and/or patriotic). Equinox ◑ 16:25, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

(having read properly) Same as Equinox. I prefer British as more inclusive, lots of people prefer English. I think most English people use these somewhat interchangeably. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:31, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

All righty. By the way, re "how to interpret the 'even'": I meant as opposed to an American, say. That is, this appendix, which lists one nationality/ethnicity per language seems useless. Here's why: Frenchmen know how to say "I am French", and anglophones who don't know French don't need to say it. (The exception is, e.g., Americans of French extraction who know no French but need to say "I am French" in French. I find it hard to believe this appendix exists for such people alone.) So this list is only for anglophones who hear (or read) "I am French" in French and wish to know what it means. This assumes that the person they hear (1) is French, not, e.g., Swiss, and (2) says "I am French" in precisely the way listed in the appendix, and not using another turn of phrase. Like I said, this appendix — at least in its present format — seems useless.​—msh210℠ 18:01, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I made an example phrase, which could be a nationality or ethnic origin. I admit, the choice for the English is not obvious but this is a phrasebook entry, one of the first phrases needed when introducing yourself overseas or to FL speakers, like what's your name?, how are you?, what's your name? and the answers my name is, I'm fine, thank you, I am ... year(s) old. If the community decides to rename the entry to I am British, I am American, shorten I am to I'm or whatever, it's fine with me but the translations should match the phrase. I don't think it's useless, Msh210, the entry has translations, so an English speaker can look up how to introduce himself in a foreign language. With some knowledge of FL, (I am) English can be replaced with anything. To make it generic enough, I chose to use one nationality/ethnicity per language. --Anatoli 22:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

If the point is that an anglophone be able to introduce himself as English in French et al., then the table should list translations of "I'm English" rather than "I'm [ethnicity]" in local various ethnicities' languages. And if that's what we're to have — a bunch of translations of "I'm English" — then they should be in a translation table at [[I am English]] rather than in an appendix.​—msh210℠ 16:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

This conversation has continued at [[WT:RFDO#Appendix:I_am_(ethnicity)]].​—msh210℠ 15:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

eu sou brasileiro, yo soy mexicano

Perhaps a new function could be implemented here: Links to various countries per language. The current only one ethnic origin per language looks too restrictive. Some possible examples would be:

• eu sou brasileiro, which is translated from Portuguese as "I am Brazilian".
• yo soy mexicano, which is translated from Spanish as "I am Mexican".

--Daniel. 04:45, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I thought about it but I don't know how. What's your idea? Also, the new phrase I've been working on - I need an interpreter. I'd like it to be more generic to allow people to look up I need a doctor with no trouble. --Anatoli 05:05, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't see a reason to not add ethnic origins there; so, as you can see, I simply implemented my idea. The I need an interpreter is also apparently going well. --Daniel. 00:22, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I am thirsty

I see this appendix was recently renamed from Appendix:I am to Appendix:I am (something). Both names could conceivably label an appendix that contains the terms I am thirsty, I am ... years old; or, possibly, for a reader who is unfamiliar with our phrasebook tendencies, I am Daniel, I am an artist or I am interested in that movie. That is to say, I don't think that either name would enlighten someone, unless he or she reads at least the page's introduction. Are there other ideas for names? I'm considering Appendix:I am (ethnic origin) and Appendix:Phrasebook/Ethnic origins. --Daniel. 05:02, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't mix I am English, I am thirsty and I am ... year(s) old and certainly not "I am interested in...". If you look at some translations, you will see that the grammar and the vocab may be very different. Look at Russian and Japanese translations, they are good examples of how different they may from "I am..." + something. They may not use the equivalent of "to be". Even "A is B" is not always the same in other languages, e.g. the choice of article or its absence. --Anatoli 05:10, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Apparently, you missed the part where I said "I don't think that either name would enlighten some one, unless he or she reads at least the page's introduction". I am aware that grammar and vocabularies of different languages tend to be different, even for direct translations of simple phrases like "I am" or "A is B"; I was just pointing to the fact that the page name is not good enough for my standards. In my opinion, Appendix:I am (ethnic origin) is a better choice than Appendix:I am for a page described as "This appendix contains a list of sentences which are translated as I am, followed by each ethnic origin (one nationality/ethnicity example per each language).", because the current title is not clear enough. --Daniel. 23:25, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for misunderstanding. It's OK if you change but check all the linked pages as well. --Anatoli 10:36, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

No problem. I've moved the page and fixed the double redirects. --Daniel. 07:20, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Appendix:I am not (something)

Do we need an Appendix:I am not (something)? For instance, a phrase like "I am not Jew" would be useful when you travel to Muslim countries. --Vahagn Petrosyan 20:35, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

LOL, you add if you wish, Vaghagn. I can add some translations as a demo of negative "I am not" sentences. --Anatoli 10:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Canadian is not primarily an ethnicity

I am Canadian can be a statement of nationality, be that citizenship, residence, birth, or culture, but rarely ethnicity (better expressed with I am Aboriginal, I am First Nations, I am Indian, I am Inuit, I am Métis, I am Native, or I am Native Canadian).

Perhaps we should separate these concepts, or move this page to the more general Appendix:I am (nationality)?

Broken table column sorting

Column sorting is completely broken in Safari/Mac. Click on either column's sort widget, and the table is messed up until I refresh the page. Does it work in your browser? If not, let's remove the sort widgets. —Michael Z. 2010-05-27 04:05 z

It's not working in Mozilla Firefox 3.5.2 and Microsoft Internet Explore 7 either. --Anatoli 04:09, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Deletion debate

The following information passed a request for deletion.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Appendix:I am (ethnicity)

Copied from the talkpage:

[…] this appendix, which lists one nationality/ethnicity per language seems useless. Here's why: Frenchmen know how to say "I am French", and anglophones who don't know French don't need to say it. (The exception is, e.g., Americans of French extraction who know no French but need to say "I am French" in French. I find it hard to believe this appendix exists for such people alone.) So this list is only for anglophones who hear (or read) "I am French" in French and wish to know what it means. This assumes that the person they hear (1) is French, not, e.g., Swiss, and (2) says "I am French" in precisely the way listed in the appendix, and not using another turn of phrase. Like I said, this appendix — at least in its present format — seems useless.​—msh210℠ 18:01, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I made an example phrase, which could be a nationality or ethnic origin. I admit, the choice for the English is not obvious but this is a phrasebook entry, one of the first phrases needed when introducing yourself overseas or to FL speakers, like what's your name?, how are you?, what's your name? and the answers my name is, I'm fine, thank you, I am ... year(s) old. If the community decides to rename the entry to I am British, I am American, shorten I am to I'm or whatever, it's fine with me but the translations should match the phrase. I don't think it's useless, Msh210, the entry has translations, so an English speaker can look up how to introduce himself in a foreign language. With some knowledge of FL, (I am) English can be replaced with anything. To make it generic enough, I chose to use one nationality/ethnicity per language. --Anatoli 22:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

If the point is that an anglophone be able to introduce himself as English in French et al., then the table should list translations of "I'm English" rather than "I'm [ethnicity]" in local various ethnicities' languages. And if that's what we're to have — a bunch of translations of "I'm English" — then they should be in a translation table at [[I am English]] rather than in an appendix.​—msh210℠ 16:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

End of quotation from the talkpage.​—msh210℠ 17:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Definitely makes more sense to have individual entries. But why not keep the appendix until all or most of the red links are gone? —Michael Z. 2010-05-26 19:25 z

No. My point that the appendix is useless applies to я русская also.​—msh210℠ 19:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Useless how? If I were a monolingual Russian-Canadian, travelling in Russia and wanting to tell the natives of my shared ancestry? Let's not assume that some stereotypical scenario is universal. A strength of not being limited to a stack of paper is that we can accommodate minorities. —Michael Z. 2010-05-26 20:14 z

Good point. Also, what about understanding what the native speakers say? A learner wants to know how native speaker introduce themselves. If he/she asks a question where are you from?, then they want to be able to understand the reply, e.g. if an Arab woman says أنا مصرية ('ána maSríyya) - I am Egyptian (woman). Strong keep. If you don't like the phrasebook project, stay away from it. It's very useful, has been there for a while and gained support from many contributors. --Anatoli 01:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I favor a keep. Per Equinox's recent comment (maybe Monday or Tuesday) I'd like us to keep the phrasebook and the dictionary separate, so moving these things from the main name space to appendices is exactly what I favor. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

This appendix requires that the Egyptian woman reply using the exact turn of phrase found in the appendix. What are the chances of that? I mean, I don't know Egyptian Arabic, but in Hebrew you can say (transliterated) "ani yisr'eli" or "ani miyisrael" or "ani mehaaretz" or "ani noladti baaretz" or "mishpachti miyisrael" or any one of many other formulations. And concerning your personal comments, Anatoli: I like the phrasebook (as I think my comments at RFD on various occasions have made clear), but I like it to contain only useful content, content that belongs in a phrasebook.​—msh210℠ 15:23, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I sounded harsh, msh210 :). I still don't understand what you're asking. The contents is useful, in my opinion and it IS already an Appendix. As Stephen said below, you can substitute the ethnicity or nationality with other words. Re: the variants, well a phrasebook teaches how to say things and can't provide all possible variants, can it? I am + ethnicity/nationality is one of the first phrases in Lonely Planet or other popular bilingual phrasebooks. The difference is that our appendix teaches the nationality in the target language, which is important as well. Some knowledge of FL can help to replace the ethnicity with others, even if it's grammatically incorrect, the chance is high for being understood. Re: both standard Arabic/Egyptian Arabic - there is only one way (IMHO) to say "I am Egyptian" but there's a difference in gender and máSriy/maSríyya (m/f) is more colloquial than míSriy/miSríyya and, of course a person can choose to say

"I am from Egypt" أنا من مصر ('ána min maSr), rather than stating that he/she is Egyptian. --Anatoli 00:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

So the whole point of this appendix is for anglophones of foreign ancestry who want to inform people of that ancestry in the foreign language? Wow. Then I still say delete.​—msh210℠ 15:23, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I see the point of the appendix is to show the pattern. Another ethnicity can be easily substituted. I think it’s more useful to have the ethnicity that pertains to each language than to have all of the say "I am American" or "I am Scotch-Irish". I think it is useful and we should keep. —Stephen 21:54, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I;d have thought there's plenty of scope for adding redirects and alternative forms in the appendices, like je suis français, chui français. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:43, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Kept.​—msh210℠ (talk) 20:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)