Appendix talk:Egyptian Arabic Swadesh list

line#8.. sorry for my atrocious spelling and grammar كده دوة ودية ودولة ليه؟ كنت افكر الكلمة إنها كده... صح؟ Msheflin 06:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok... actually, having read more of this list, a few comments. I think that there needs to be some thought put into whether we want to spell these words correctly in Arabic and transliterate them as they would be pronounced in Egypt (i.e. تلاتة, إتنين). I realize that words are commonly spelled with the ت instead of the ث and this makes sense; however they are not always spelled with the taa... this is basically a devolution of the character distinctions based on the lack of distinction in the sounds. I'm assuming this is only relevant to the times tha is pronounced as taa as when it is pronounced saa it would have to be written as ث to be distinguishable (?).

Also, I thought بعض was not commonly used (rather كم like كم حاجات - some things (as opposed to حاجات كم؟ - how many things?). Seriously though... on first glance, this page is questionable... I have never heard a child called عيل but rather طفل أو ولد. I'm not going to go on, some of the Masris have to step up here. Msheflin 06:42, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi ! "we" do not transliterate but use the most common spelling, masry is a written language too ! So تلاتة, إتنين are correct. I also checked for عيل and it is the commonly used word for child. طفل is more formal, and ولد is more used in the south. As for دوة ,دية ,دولة they seem correct to me, I didn't quite get your sentence, what do you think is wrong ? Beru7 16:53, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Nothing. I've just never heard them before. I was having this discussion with a more linguistically-inclined friend of mine about what kidda actually means. I still have qualms about the spelling, for the same reason I have qualms about the main Masri article. By subsuming all "Masri" under the Cairene dialect (basically) or the Northern dialects (excluding Siwa walbeduu etc.), we've culturally favored Masri from Masr (Cairo) but not from Masr (Egypt). As for the word choices... ok whatever - despite my attempts I still know only a fraction of Egyptian Arabic. As for the spelling, I still find it to be a general succumbing to the poor spelling of Masris (not Masri); and as such, I wonder how you pronounce إتنيت as isnein (if that is your home pronunciation) when it's written as itnein. itnein is usually written that way because of the way it is pronounced. But this pronunciation is itself a devolution from Fus7a that primarily favors Cairene. Do you see what I'm saying? (sorry, I forgot to stamp this original post...)

Like ابو واب are both perfectly correct, but I had thought that بابو وبابا were more common (او بابة); I'm not sure of the spelling. Likewise ام (really أم) is correct, but مامة is also common (or maybe ماما). I am just wondering what the point of putting Egyptian up here is, if not to create an alternate to fus7a - if people want to use, in Masri, the fus7a words that are in Masri, "one" could create a pronunciation list. Msheflin 20:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the Cairene dialect is usually what is referred to when speaking of Egyptian Arabic. A bit like Parisian French is the "standard" french. I guess صعيدي‎ should be treated as a separate language (but I don't know much about it).

As for the spelling, it is not "poor spelling" but just the way people write their language. Educated people I know have perfect fusHa spelling but when writing in masri will just write اتنين because that is the way it is "properly" spelt in masri (more or less pronounced ʔitneːn, by the way). There is, actually, quite a sizable corpus to support that claim: poetry, songs, plays, novels even, all written by very litterate people who perfectly know what they are doing. Bear in mind that for example what became spanish, french, italian evolved from forms of colloquial latin (lingua rustica romana), which were probably considered at the time as latin with bad spelling and grammar !

Right now it seems masri is considered a separate language by most linguists, and in my opinion, rightly so because it has a different morphology, syntax, pronunciation and its own vocabulary (at least for everyday topics).

Furthermore, from the little I have read on the topic, it seems unclear how much of Egyptian Arabic (and other dialects) actually descends from litterary Arabic, and how much from other ancient dialects.

About the difference between بابا and ابو, I guess it is the same as between dad and father.

Thanks for your comments ! Beru7 18:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Yea you're right. After talking to some people and getting repeated ad-messages from Vodaphone, I concede. I'll stick to the languages I'm most used to. Msheflin 16:06, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Broad Transcription?

• Since the alveolar consonant in Egyptian ranges between a trill & a flap. Also, since the transcription is broad, then it is better to use the character /r/ instead of /ɾ/. The consonant indeed is pronounced as a trill or as a flap, or in between both.
• Also, /a/ should not have been used, but instead [æ], because it is near-open front unrounded, not open front unrounded.
• I wonder why are /i, u/ used for the broad transcription anyway, since they are rarer to hear! The transcription is broad, because if it were narrow, it would have not used the short vowels /i, u/, instead would have used [e, o]. That would be, if it were supposed that /i, u/ are the original vowels.

  I don't know if /a, i, u/ were just used because they are the original vowels of Classical Arabic, or not. But, the Egyptian pronunciation differs from all Arabic varieties, including Classical Arabic.

  If it were intended to use a narrow transcription, then /a(ː), i, u/ can't be used.

I want to

1. Change all the /ɾ/ to /r/.
2. Correct some pronunciations which are clearly false, such as to vomit /ɾɑggaʕ/, /jiɾɑggaʕ/.
   • That word isn't pronounced with a back vowel ([ɑ]). The vowels here are front, so they would be: [ˈræɡːæʕ], [jeˈræɡːæʕ].
   • Anyway, the emphasis in Egyptian affects the whole word, not only the syllable near the alveolar trill/flap consonant. --Mahmudmasri 04:44, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Template problem

I think that this list is out of the standard template for lists with IPA pronunciation IPA template. Most other languages don't use the slashes /. Is it ok if I remove them? Rbstern (talk) 18:25, 2 December 2012 (UTC)