User talk:Canonicalization/2019-2020

onctueux

The etymology section for onctueux derives it from unctum. Maybe you should do something about it. --Hekaheka (talk) 19:26, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

@Hekaheka: We only list direct descendants in descendants sections. If we decided to put every derivative there, not only would it be redundant (onctueux is already listed as a descendant at unctuosus, after all), but the lists would also become huge and unusable. Please see this discussion: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/October § Section "Descendants". Canonicalization (talk) 19:56, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

All manners of crap

As for "I notice that the people here who strive for keeping all manners of crap are often those who put in the least amount of work, never mind real work": I notice that the contributor number 1 of English entries is rather inclusionist. I don't see the correlation postulated between lexicographical work on one hand, and inclusionism vs. exclusionism on the other hand.

How is User:Chignon doing? Please ask him if and when you see him again. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:07, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

He's good, thank you for asking. Canonicalization (talk) 10:32, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps

Perhaps Proteus? --sarri.greek (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

@sarri.greek: I'm afraid that one is already taken :p Canonicalization (talk) 15:31, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

User:Proteus. --sarri.greek (talk) 15:33, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

@sarri.greek: Yes, but. Canonicalization (talk) 15:43, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

mais qu'est-ce que c'est

If someone asked you what an ortolète was, what would you think? Maybe a little bird? Equinox ◑ 01:31, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: Probably, due to the similarity with ortolan. Canonicalization (talk) 09:52, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

rangé / rangée

Should this have an adjective? Simone de Beauvoir's Memoires d'une jeune fille rangée was translated as Memoirs of a Dutiful Daughter. Equinox ◑ 01:47, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and there are several senses: see chambre rangée, vie rangée, bataille rangée. Canonicalization (talk) 09:52, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

alors ajoutez mon garçon. I am too bad at French to do French. Equinox ◑ 10:03, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

I understand the meaning of "rangé des voitures" but I don't see why it means that. Are we saying that he has "tidied up his cars" (put his garage in order?) or he has moved away from the noisy race cars to a quieter life, or...? Equinox ◑ 11:01, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: In fact, I didn't even know of this expression until today. From what I'm reading, the etymology isn't clear, but it's probably nothing to do with race cars, since the idiom hearkens back to the nineteenth century. Canonicalization (talk) 11:03, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

jungle

The French entry jungle has the horrible gloss "all senses", though I would presume that the senses "hobo camp" and "desert region" are absent from French. Could you give it a clean-up? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 09:38, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Just a reminder, also feel free to decline. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 12:21, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

pierre perdu

This is weird isn't it? Why did we borrow it without that feminine perdue? Equinox ◑ 13:43, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

@Equinox: (I didn't know the term in French.) I don't know, sorry; I looked around a bit but couldn't find anything. I guess some English speakers don't know that French adjectives agree in gender with the noun they qualify? Canonicalization (talk) 19:52, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

If you want to create the French entry I guess I wouldn't judge :D Equinox ◑ 02:33, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

What's not to like

What's not to like about "Chignon" user name? It has two syllables, is easy to remember and short to type. Pronunciation is at chignon; I can pick the English one or the French one, and I can invent a Czech one on the model of Avignon. I don't know, I like it. (If this post is considered impertinent, please ignore it.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:44, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@Dan Polansky: (Just so you know, I don't find it impertinent.) Canonicalization (talk) 19:25, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Which preposition to use

You expressed some doubt about "the message was [not directed] to you" vs. "at you". These are both acceptable (you probably knew this and wavered for this reason). If you are curious about the nuances: IMO, "at" is a bit more direct: maybe you throw a ball TO a child (they can choose to catch it or not), but you throw a stone AT a monster (right in the eye! yeah!). "Directed to you" sounds a little less natural to me (a Gallicism?). In fact I would probably use "aim" here: it wasn't aimed at you.

blah blah blah...

BTW, I think it's quite hard for NES learning French to deal with à, dans, en, which may all translate to "in" (or sometimes "at", but not in a predictable way). Equinox ◑ 02:32, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

œuf au miroir

The German and Dutch etymologies at spiegelei/Spiegelei both mention a form œuf au miroir. I guess that's another synonym of œuf miroir? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 07:27, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Your edits on στοιχεῖον

Please explain your edits; your edit summaries (or lack thereof) are not helpful. ωικιωαrrιorᑫᑫ1ᑫ 15:36, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

See Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/October § Section "Descendants". Canonicalization (talk) 15:41, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

ստեխիամետրիա

Well, if that's not the correct etymology, then what is it? ωικιωαrrιorᑫᑫ1ᑫ 15:37, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@WikiWarrior9919: I don't know; please wait for the answer of Vahagn Petrosyan, our main Armenian editor. Canonicalization (talk) 15:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Okay. ωικιωαrrιorᑫᑫ1ᑫ 15:41, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@WikiWarrior9919, please stick to matters you understand. --Vahag (talk) 15:17, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le cul de la crémière

See also: User_talk:Chignon/2017-2018

I fixed the issue with commas. The issue with the schwa is partly because cul is pronounced like "cu"; when pronounced that way, the schwa becomes optional. I also implemented a mechanism to make it easy to respell a single word in a multi-word expression. If the pronunciation is written as "[FROM1:TO1,FROM2:TO2,...]", it will replace FROM1 with TO1, then FROM2 with TO2, etc. Normally the "from" value must be a whole word (or words), but if you precede it with ~, it will match in the middle of words as well. Benwing2 (talk) 01:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

I changed the auto-splitting algorithm in Module:fr-headword. It now splits as before, but also splits on hyphens if either (a) the lemma has no spaces in it, or (b) |splitdash=1 is given (if you don't like that parameter name, let me know). It also has a list of words with apostrophes in them that should not be split; so far, this includes only quelqu'un, c'est and aujourd'hui. Finally, it tracks redundant head= specifications in Template:tracking/fr-headword/redundant-head. I also converted {{fr-verb}} to use the module, so it will autosplit in the same fashion, and I am in the process of converting the templates for the remaining parts of speech. Benwing2 (talk) 01:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thank you!! Canonicalization (talk) 20:21, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2, hi and Happy New Year. Could I ask you to add the autosplitting to {{fr-pron}}, and to create a {{fr-prov}} (for proverbs) with the same autosplitting yet again? Canonicalization (talk) 10:15, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

@Canonicalization Done; See {{fr-pron}} and {{fr-proverb}}. For now, a missing pronoun gender is allowed and tracked at Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:tracking/fr-headword/missing-pron-gender. Benwing2 (talk) 02:38, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thank you again! Canonicalization (talk) 09:12, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Czech etymology

I'm not at all sure your supposed Proto-Slavic term even exists. Anyway, see Rejzek, whose etymological dictionary is the best I know of for Czech. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:08, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: I'm not sure either, but it's a red link over at Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/duxъ, added in this diff by User:Bezimenen. Thanks for the ref! Canonicalization (talk) 22:13, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

@Canonicalization: Which term bothers you exactly? There are several red links in *duxъ. Bezimenen (talk) 23:21, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

@Bezimenen: *vъzduxъ. We were talking about Czech vzduch; I don't know whether it's:

• a borrowing (or a calque?) from Russian во́здух (Rejzek, Jiří (2001) “vzduch”, in Český etymologický slovník [Czech Etymological Dictionary] (in Czech), 1st edition, Voznice: LEDA, →ISBN, page 727 says it's "přejato v obrození z r. во́здух", but I can't translate that);
• a borrowing (or a calque?) from Old Church Slavonic въздоухъ;
• a Czech formation parallel to those two words (I think that's what Vasmer, Max (1964–1973) “во́здух”, in Oleg Trubachyov, transl., Этимологический словарь русского языка [Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language] (in Russian), Moscow: Progress is saying?);
• an inheritance from a common etymon Proto-Slavic *vъzduxъ (but did it really exist?). Canonicalization (talk) 09:20, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

• @Canonicalization: It certainly is an ancient word, most likely from Proto-Slavic times. Whether it meant "air" from the very beginning, I'm not sure. The word Proto-Slavic *duxъ itself actually did not mean originally spirit, ghost, but just gush of air. Regarding Czech/Slovak vzduch, according to BER (likely quoting some Czech dictionary), they are not attested until 18 century, hence, likely they were borrowed from Russian. Bezimenen (talk) 09:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

@Bezimenen: All right, thank you for this. But if I understand correctly, the only direct descendant/evidence of that Proto-Slavic word is actually Old Church Slavonic въздоухъ (which is enough for me), because:

• Russian во́здух is borrowed from OCS;
• Czech vzduch and Slovak vzduch words are borrowed/calqued from the Russian;
• Bulgarian въздух, Macedonian воздух, Serbo-Croatian ва̀здӯх are descendants of/borrowings from OCS (see the descendants list in Old Church Slavonic въздоухъ);
• Alternatively, Serbo-Croatian ва̀здӯх is borrowed from Russian (as it says in the entry). Which is right? Is it from OCS, or from Russian? Canonicalization (talk) 09:55, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

• @Canonicalization: The Serbian forms are more likely reflexes of Church Slavonic. SCr -a- is the expected outcome from proper -ъ-, not of Rus. -o-. Regarding the Proto-Slavic origin, note that Bulgarian въздух (vǎzduh) does not mean only air. Colloquially it also means deep gasp, sigh, which seems to be the original meaning. Given how old the OCS meaning is, I thing the lemma itself would be even more archaic. I've seen ESSJa (Trubachev) and Derksen reconstructing Proto-Slavic forms in such cases (e.g. *navějь, *žuna /attested only in Bulgarian and cognate with Baltic terms/). Another argument suggesting antiquity of the term is that Old Church Slavonic въздоухъ (vŭzduxŭ) does not seem to be a calque. Ancient Greek ᾱ̓ήρ (āḗr) (and Latin āēr) originally meant wind, mist, which is distinct from whiff, puff, gasp of the Slavic construction. Bezimenen (talk) 10:28, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

sportivité

We translate this as sportsmanship, meaning polite conduct in a game (not being a "bad loser", etc.), but I recently saw it used to describe a type of car: that would be sportiness. So should the entry have both translations? Equinox ◑ 22:31, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

anaesthetise, etc

The standard British way of spelling the -ae-/-e- dichotomy is to use the first (ie archaeology NOT archeology). "anaesthetise" is more complicated and I have changed the entry for "αναισθητοποιώ" to show this. I'm sorry that you find it confusing; this IS my standard way of dealing with the -ize/-ise dichotomy in the many Greek translations I have done and I would rather they were left like that! — Saltmarsh. 06:24, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh: Fair enough. Canonicalization (talk) 09:01, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

loi phonétique

Do you reckon loi phonétique derives, whether directly or via an intermediary, from German Lautgesetz? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 09:32, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo: Mh, first attested in 1836, AFAICT. What's the earliest attestation of Lautgesetz? Was it coined by the brothers Grimm? Canonicalization (talk) 14:31, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

May well be, the Deutsche Grammatik from 1822 seems the oldest sure attestation. [1] ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 14:37, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Could you check this user's edits to French, especially Miami as some of the others seem kind of fine? There were strange errors in some of the English and Dutch edits. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 10:18, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo: The first pronunciation (/mja.mi/) was wrong, but he corrected it afterwards. His pronunciation of English microphone (/maɪ.kɹoʊ.foʊn/) sounds wrong and I've brought it up to the tea room. Canonicalization (talk) 17:45, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

columbage

Is this the same as colombage (half-timbering)? Equinox ◑ 23:01, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

faire chier sense 2

"(vulgar, slang) to have a (fucking) nightmare, to be pissed off". This seems to be saying two different things: having a bad time is not the same as being angry about it, and you can have a bad time without getting angry. Thoughts? Equinox ◑ 01:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

@Equinox: Yes, indeed. I'll have a got at it later today. Canonicalization (talk) 08:23, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

You wrote: "does nightmare and pain in the ass have something to do with boredom? If not, "to have a nightmare" and "today is such a pain in the ass" are incorrect translations". Neither of those things suggest boredom. A nightmare is a situation/period of time where everything goes wrong in the worst way: for example, you are going on holiday, but you are stopped by customs, and they find drugs in your bag that you never knew about, and you spend three days in jail: that's a nightmare (or, less dramatically, your mother-in-law comes to stay and you have to deal with that annoying bitch). It's a difficult time, but not scary (like a nightmare dream) or boring, merely annoying and stressful. A pain in the ass (in BrE arse) is also something annoying, probably deliberately and obnoxiously annoying, like having to fill in ten forms before you can enter the hospital; or your downstairs neighbour who yells at you whenever you play some quiet music, he could be a pain in the ass too. Neither of these terms suggests boredom. Equinox ◑ 03:03, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

BTW, I don't think "have a nightmare" is the best collocation. You might "experience" or "go through" a nightmare. But "have a nightmare" suggests literally having an unpleasant dream while sleeping. (I'm pondering this, and not 100% sure of my comment. Something like "have a nightmare of a time" sounds totally natural, for example.) Equinox ◑ 03:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

être/mourir en odeur de sainteté

The Great Dictionary doesn't mention être en odeur de sainteté under the "Odeur" entry but mentions mourir en odeur de sainteté (and other idioms using odeur), which makes me think that mourir en odeur de sainteté came before être en odeur de sainteté. I might be wrong, though. Paris91 (talk) 20:54, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Czech sources

To help answer the questions you asked in an edit summary, here are some Czech sources:

• “smrtní”, in Příruční slovník jazyka českého (in Czech), 1935–1957
• “smrtní”, in Slovník spisovného jazyka českého (in Czech), 1960–1971, 1989
• smrtní in Akademický slovník cizích slov, 1995, at prirucka.ujc.cas.cz

--Dan Polansky (talk) 11:40, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

@Dan Polansky: Ah yes, thank you. I don't know Czech, unfortunately. Both forms smrtní and smrtný exist, if I'm guessing right? Canonicalization (talk) 11:50, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

smrtní and smrtný exist as per sources, and attestation (WT:ATTEST) exists too. I created smrtní. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:08, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

opinionmaker

You commented: "the spellings opinion maker and opinion-maker are also attested, apparently? wouldn't they be more common? the spaceless variant looks rather weird". It doesn't look especially weird to me (chairmaker, hitmaker) but I do tend to favour single-word forms (unless especially rare) bc they really evidence the word as a "unit". Hyphenating "non-" and "anti-" is still more common in BrE than AmE but I think the gap has been closing. (I remember in my teenage years forms like "nonsmoking" looked absolutely bizarre to me. No longer!) Equinox ◑ 21:27, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

BTW, unrelated, the text at the top of your talk page ("I don't mind receiving pings...") is coloured like the wiki system alerts "(you have new messages)" which can be a bit disconcerting. I see you are using their CSS style "usermessage" which may be good for consistency but suggests that the wiki, rather than an individual user, is telling me something! Equinox ◑ 21:29, 6 March 2020 (UTC)