Talk:tip
Is there any reference for the "tipple" origin for the sense of gratuity? First I've heard of that one.
More etymologies (proposal to add)
[edit]I'd like to add the following etymologies (simplified/condensed and in Wikipedia format, of course) which will mean splitting the meanings up.
Etymology 1 NOUN ca. 1225: "end, point, top" from M.L.G. or M.Du. tip "utmost point, extremity, tip" (cf. Ger. zipfel, a dim. formation); perhaps cognate with O.E. tæppa "stopper" (see tap (n.)), from P.Gmc. *tupp- "upper extremity."
Etymology 2 VERB ca. 1300: "to slope, overturn" possibly from Scand., or a special use of tip (n.). Intransitive sense of "fall over" is recorded from 1530.
Etymology 3 NOUN & VERB ca. 1466: "light, sharp blow or tap" possibly from Low Ger. tippen "to poke, touch lightly", related to M.L.G. tip "end, point" and thus connected to tip (n.); or else connected with tap (v.) "to strike lightly." The noun in this sense [i.e. a light blow or tap] is attested from 1567.
Etymology 4 VERB & NOUN 1610: "give a small present of money to" "to give, hand, pass", originally thieves' cant (slang), perhaps from tip (Etym 3) "to tap". The meaning "give a gratuity to" is first attested 1706. The noun in this sense is from 1755; the meaning "piece of confidential information" is from 1845; the verb in this sense is from 1883; tipster first recorded 1862.
Any objections?--Tyranny Sue 12:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- My dictionary adds:
- E1: O.N. typpa, to tip; Du, Norw, Dan, tip
- E2: M.E. type (origin obscure)
- E3: cognates Du tippen, Sw tippa
- E4: nothing to add
- Pingku 17:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Arg - complicated! :) --Tyranny Sue 13:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- OK, I've given it a good go in terms of splitting out the etymologies. Ƿidsiþ 14:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- Nice work, Ƿidsiþ! I was too intimidated to try. I'd like to add some quotations, especially to Etym 5. (I wonder if the 'dump' meaning might've come from Etym 2?)--Tyranny Sue 02:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
AAVE usage
[edit]Can we add the AAVE slang usage of "tip"--I'm not exactly sure of the meaning, but it's used as in "on the ... tip."
Example #1 at this source gives two examples of such a usage: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tip
24.29.228.33 06:51, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- I can't figure out what it means, but I'm adding citations to Citations:tip. DCDuring TALK 15:09, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- Is it like being on a kick or trip, a sort of informal phase? I first heard of this in the title of a rave track in the early '90s: On A Ragga Tip. Equinox ◑ 15:11, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- That fits three of the cites, but not 2011 and 2002. They all seem to me to have some common sense. I might even be able to use the expression almost correctly, but I can't quite word it. DCDuring TALK 15:52, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- 2011 and 2002 could work with "front". Equinox ◑ 15:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yup. I think you may have a handle on it. It seems to need at least two senses. The fit doesn't seem perfect at the 1999 cite, but I can hardly figure that one out at all. DCDuring TALK 17:26, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have added a new ety (I can't see which existing one it might fit) with two senses and a link to the citations page. It'll do for now. Equinox ◑ 22:39, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yup. I think you may have a handle on it. It seems to need at least two senses. The fit doesn't seem perfect at the 1999 cite, but I can hardly figure that one out at all. DCDuring TALK 17:26, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- 2011 and 2002 could work with "front". Equinox ◑ 15:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- That fits three of the cites, but not 2011 and 2002. They all seem to me to have some common sense. I might even be able to use the expression almost correctly, but I can't quite word it. DCDuring TALK 15:52, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
- Is it like being on a kick or trip, a sort of informal phase? I first heard of this in the title of a rave track in the early '90s: On A Ragga Tip. Equinox ◑ 15:11, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).
Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so.
I haven't been able to find any usage in dictionaries or elsewhere. --Espoo (talk) 10:58, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Well, then search more. Possibly dated in the US due to the money-giving sense. OED tip v. 5. If there is a
{{defdate}}in the entry Wiktionary probably has it from OED, that should have tipped you. Fay Freak (talk) 11:02, 14 August 2021 (UTC)- I don’t think that requires verification. It’s common in English usage: “He was tipped off that the police were on the way, so he left in a hurry.” See tip off, sense 1. I wonder if there is also a transitive use: “The professor tipped her class about the topics to study for the exam”? (Update: the OED entry only lists the transitive sense.) — SGconlaw (talk) 11:21, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Well, the first is tip off (however the OED also mixes). But true with the second example. As linked, there is. Fay Freak (talk) 11:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- The OED tends not to define phrasal verbs in separate entries; thus, the sense of tip in tip off would appear in tip. — SGconlaw (talk) 11:40, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Use in that sense without "off" is so rare that it's not even mentioned on https://www.lexico.com/definition/tip , so it's not a US/UK difference and we should at least mark it as dated and specify how it was used. Were you just teasing me with "that should have tipped you" and "tipped her class" or do people really use it that way nowadays? The only thing i found so far is "tip a horse to a punter" on Wikipedia. According to your and Fay Freak's serious, outdated, or silly examples, you would apparently say "tip a punter about? a horse". --Espoo (talk) 11:44, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- What’s the original sense of hint, anyway, @Hazarasp? If it is “a small amount of”, then “tip” in the sense of information is really the same “as a tip of, eine Messerspitze”, like one uses “hint at”. The preposition used for the object of this verb tip is not clear in the examples in the OED, but it could even be doubly transitive, as in the 1909 example in the OED. “A run up to 90, the price for which the shares are tipped”. So nowadays those investment redditors could say “*I tipped him the stocks he should buy” or the like, I guess. Yeah really, because tipping even means something particular at the bourses, too, with regard to giving information for inside trading. Well true it needs investigation. Fay Freak (talk) 11:59, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- The original sense of hint is "opportunity". The "small amount" sense seems to be quite a recent development; it's absent in the OED (1901), and our 1922 quote for this sense may actually represent another sense ("the slightest hint" would be "the slightest clue/suggestion", not "the slightest amount").
- The OED says the following about the "information" sense of tip:
- 1926, “tip n.⁴”, in James A. H. Murray et al., editors, A New English Dictionary on Historical Principles (Oxford English Dictionary), volume X, Part 1, London: Clarendon Press, →OCLC, page 60:
- perhaps < Tip v.¹, with the notion of tipping or lightly touching the arm or elbow of a person by way of a private hint, or < Tip v.⁴ in the phrase to tip (any one) a wink.
- These suggestions strike me as eminently plausible. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 12:46, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Well then hint had the reverse meaning development from an information to a scruple. Fay Freak (talk) 13:08, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Espoo: Lexico, being a free resource, tends only to give the most common uses and isn't comprehensive. But I would agree that using tip without off is probably less common these days. (The OED entry hasn't been updated since 1912, so more recent uses aren't listed yet.) — SGconlaw (talk) 12:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- As i'm sure you know, Lexico's content is produced by Oxford lexicographers. When a meaning or usage is left out, that's a conscious decision based on that meaning/usage being very rare, not caused by the need to reduce expenses as in a compact paper edition. I feel we should definitely mark this usage as rare and dated in general usage and indicate that it's been replaced by "tip off" outside of specialist usage (and even there probably only in writing). I didn't get an answer to these questions: Were you just teasing me with "that should have tipped you" and "tipped her class" or do people really still use it that way nowadays? The only thing i found so far is "tip a horse to a punter" on Wikipedia. According to your and Fay Freak's serious, outdated, or silly examples, you would apparently say "tip a punter about? a horse". I was planning to call "Could you tip a good horse for me?" Finglish and replace it with real English, or do you really use "tip" that way? --Espoo (talk) 07:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
- What’s the original sense of hint, anyway, @Hazarasp? If it is “a small amount of”, then “tip” in the sense of information is really the same “as a tip of, eine Messerspitze”, like one uses “hint at”. The preposition used for the object of this verb tip is not clear in the examples in the OED, but it could even be doubly transitive, as in the 1909 example in the OED. “A run up to 90, the price for which the shares are tipped”. So nowadays those investment redditors could say “*I tipped him the stocks he should buy” or the like, I guess. Yeah really, because tipping even means something particular at the bourses, too, with regard to giving information for inside trading. Well true it needs investigation. Fay Freak (talk) 11:59, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Use in that sense without "off" is so rare that it's not even mentioned on https://www.lexico.com/definition/tip , so it's not a US/UK difference and we should at least mark it as dated and specify how it was used. Were you just teasing me with "that should have tipped you" and "tipped her class" or do people really use it that way nowadays? The only thing i found so far is "tip a horse to a punter" on Wikipedia. According to your and Fay Freak's serious, outdated, or silly examples, you would apparently say "tip a punter about? a horse". --Espoo (talk) 11:44, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- The OED tends not to define phrasal verbs in separate entries; thus, the sense of tip in tip off would appear in tip. — SGconlaw (talk) 11:40, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Well, the first is tip off (however the OED also mixes). But true with the second example. As linked, there is. Fay Freak (talk) 11:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don’t think that requires verification. It’s common in English usage: “He was tipped off that the police were on the way, so he left in a hurry.” See tip off, sense 1. I wonder if there is also a transitive use: “The professor tipped her class about the topics to study for the exam”? (Update: the OED entry only lists the transitive sense.) — SGconlaw (talk) 11:21, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
- Three cites. Obviously there are countless more, it is not rare and not dated if specialist use is considered. I left at page 3 of 104 for search
"tipped" -off investoron JSTOR, whose search results suck arse because they use to highlight the wrong sought word instead of the intended one, and they do not highlight the sought words when you click the result so that man has to download everything. Fay Freak (talk) 12:55, 14 August 2021 (UTC)- Also plenty of news cites for “[Detectives/Investigators/Police/...] were tipped that” --Lambiam 12:13, 15 August 2021 (UTC)