Talk:ہندی

Hindustani

@ نعم البدل: Hindustani as a language name and distinct from Urdu is a well established fact. Here are a small sample of references:

- RS McGregor’s OXFORD Hindi-English dictionary: https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/mcgregor_query.py?qs=%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%80&searchhws=yes&matchtype=exact

- Collins English dictionary: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/hindustani

- Merriam-Webster: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hindustani

- Dictionary.com: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hindustani

   compared to https://www.dictionary.com/browse/urdu

- RS Mcgregor’s article “Early Hindi prose fiction” where he states: The Muslims had given the names Hindavi, Hindui, Hindi to the Khari Boli dialect which had become the basis first of the colloquial Hindustani style and later of literary Urdu. Foreverknowledge (talk) 07:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

@Foreverknowledge: What you don't seem to understand is that the modern sense for Hindustani is different to the historical sense of Hindustani. Hindustani was a new name given to the Hindi-Urdu and other dialect cluster spoken across the Hindi belt. It is called a "language" because Hindi and Urdu are considered to be the same language, and that combined cluster is called Hindustani in the modern day and age.

That is already explained on every page, whether that be the Urdu lemmas or the English lemmas. However, the historical name for Urdu (and specifically Urdu, not the MS Hindi) was also Hindustani, along with other names – that does not change, regardless of whatever your opinion may be of the Urdu language. Urdu and Hindustani may be different today, but they were not different in the past. نعم البدل (talk) 08:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

While Hindustani may have historically referred to Urdu in colonial times, it also referred to the common predecessor of Urdu and Hindi in precolonial times. And this common predecessor was also known as Hindi/Hindui/Hindavi in addition to Hindustani. That should be clear from the references provided, and should be re-added to the definitions for completeness and accuracy.Foreverknowledge (talk) 08:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

@Foreverknowledge:

• Hindustani may have historically referred to Urdu in colonial times – the name "Urdu" (of several names) predates colonial times. It has been attested in cerca 1717, so assume late 17th century. Not to mention that the term "Hindi" has been used for "Urdu" even up until the 20th century! That's even after the Hindi-Urdu split. It took a while before the name Hindi truly became attached to the modern register.
• it also referred to the common predecessor of Urdu and Hindi – as a cluster, not necessarily as a predecessor. Like I said, the name "Hindustani" for Urdu fell out of use, and instead became replaced with the sense of Hindi-Urdu cluster.
• in precolonial times – MS Hindi wasn't even a register in 'pre-colonial times'? Maybe a few dialects, but definitely not how MS Hindi is. Fact is Hindustani and Urdu was one, until the Hindi-Urdu split. نعم البدل (talk) 08:46, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

The term Hindustani has been used for the Khariboli based lingua franca since at least the 17th century, while the Urdu language as we know it today didn’t even exist until the 18th century and the term Urdu itself only began to be used just as the British were taking control of most of India in the late 18th century. So certainly the term Hindustani was used for the predecessor of Urdu and Hindi. While it’s true that pre-18th century Hindustani in Perso-Arabic script can anachronistically be called pre-standardized Urdu (and therefore giving you the impression that Hindustani only meant Urdu historically), there is also a substantial amount of Hindustani writing in Devanagari from the 16th-19th centuries (including some that are Sanskritized) that doesn’t fall under the Urdu umbrella. That can be called pre-standardized Hindi using today’s nomenclature or be collectively called Hindustani along with the pre-standardized writing in Perso-Arabic script. Imre Bangha has discussed this in a series of articles and lectures. Foreverknowledge (talk) 09:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

In addition, Tariq Rehman states: it emerges that the ancestor of Urdu and Hindi was called by the following names: Hindi, Hindvi (13th-19th century); Dehlavi (13th-14th c.); Gujri (15th c.); Dakhani (15th-18th c.); Indostan (17th c.); Moors (18th c.); Rekhta (18th-19th c.); Hindustani (18th-20th c.). The term Urdu to refer to this language was first used, at least in existing written records, in 1780 by poet Ghulam Hamadani Mushafi (1750-1824). Foreverknowledge (talk) 09:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)