Module talk:uk-translit

Testing a sample Ukrainian text with word stresses

Short:

украї́нська мо́ва:

ukrajínsʹka móva

Long:

Украї́нська мо́ва, істори́чні на́зви — ру́ська, руси́нська — націона́льна мо́ва украї́нців. Нале́жить до слов'я́нської гру́пи індоєвропе́йської мо́вної сім'ї́. Число́ мо́вців — бли́зько 45 млн., бі́льшість яки́х живе́ в Украї́ні. Є держа́вною мо́вою в Украї́ні, офіці́йною мо́вою Придністро́в'я. Поши́рена тако́ж у Білору́сі, Молдо́ві, По́льщі, Росі́ї, Руму́нії, Слова́ччині, Казахста́ні, Аргенти́ні, Брази́лії, Вели́кій Брита́нії, Кана́ді, США́ та і́нших краї́нах, де мешка́ють украї́нці.

Ukrajínsʹka móva, istorýčni názvy — rúsʹka, rusýnsʹka — nacionálʹna móva ukrajínciv. Naléžytʹ do slovʺjánsʹkoji hrúpy indojevropéjsʹkoji móvnoji simʺjí. Čysló móvciv — blýzʹko 45 mln., bílʹšistʹ jakýx žyvé v Ukrajíni. Je deržávnoju móvoju v Ukrajíni, oficíjnoju móvoju Prydnistróvʺja. Pošýrena takóž u Bilorúsi, Moldóvi, Pólʹšči, Rosíji, Rumúniji, Slováččyni, Kazaxstáni, Arhentýni, Brazýliji, Velýkij Brytániji, Kanádi, SŠÁ ta ínšyx krajínax, de meškájutʹ ukrajínci..

It's one to one, so  Done. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:45, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Removing ["'"]='ʺ'

Reason: біда́ (bidá) is translated as ʺʺʺbidáʺʺʺ. Apostrophe "'" is used to make words bold or italic. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:25, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

So now the apostrof is not transliterated. сім'я should become sim″ja. But the result сім'я (simʺja) would be a transliteration of “сімья.”

In what situations is bold and italic formatting occurring inside the template?

Usage examples. DTLHS (talk) 20:45, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I guess the specimen term is bolded. We currently don’t italicize Cyrillic on Wikipedia, but the formatting should probably be retained in citations anyway. —Michael Z. 2013-10-09 03:17 z

Not only that but transliterations are apparently supposed to be italicized. DTLHS (talk) 03:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Then nested italic text should be in roman. Whether our spaghetti of wikitext, templates, <i> and <em> tags will ever render that correctly is fun to think about. —Michael Z. 2013-10-09 04:54 z

The patterns '' and ''' could be preserved, while single apostrophes are transliterated. —Michael Z. 2013-10-08 07:05 z

The apostrophe (or apostrof if you wish) "'" is not a letter and is understood universally. I personally see no problem with "sim'ja" and "simʹja" as transliterations of сім'я (simʺja) and сімья (simʹja). In fact, it makes more sense to transliterate "об'ява" as "ob'java" than "obʺjava". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:40, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The topic at hand is the technical problem of converting Ukrainian text mixed with wikitext formatting. As you know, I think it is a waste of time to abandon compatibility with standardized and professional transliteration schemes and gratify ourselves with our inventions. By the way, the typewriter apostrophe ('), typographic apostrophe (ʼ), and prime (ʹ) are all equivalent and interchangeable in most romanization schemes for Cyrillic, and pretty much in any writing that spans the ages of letterpress typesetting, typewriting, and digital text. The British Standard, for example, explicitly equates ' = ’ in both Cyrillic and transliteration, and " = ˮ in transliteration.

I will see if I can fix this, but it might not exactly be elegant. —Michael Z. 2013-10-09 03:17 z 03:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I have applied a fix that seems to work. It is not efficient, so I have asked User:CodeCat to review. Test: об'єдність, сім'я, об'ява (obʺjednistʹ, simʺja, obʺjava). —Michael Z. 2013-10-09 05:00 z

ьо

Anatoli, why have you added ["ьо"] = "jo"?[1] Transliteration is performed letter-for-letter, and the soft sign ь is represented by a prime ʹ . The source cited in WT:UK TR, Daniels & Bright, doesn’t have any such exceptions. —Michael Z. 2013-10-08 07:14 z

That doesn’t work anyway, because the search pattern [.] will only find a single character: синього (synʹoho). The routine would have to be rewritten to accommodate longer search patterns. —Michael Z. 2013-10-08 07:22 z

There are not many cases in native Ukrainian words where this combination appears, mostly soft adjective endings and transliteration of foreign names like Пьонтковський (Polish Piątkowski), Потьомкин (Russian Потёмкин), Пономарьов (Russian Пономарёв). Simply "ʹo" will be misread as "o", so "си́нього" will be read as "sýnoho", "sýnjoho" is much clearer - analogical to "sýnja" (си́ня). Letter "j" is used to transliterate я, ю, є, ї. Combination "ьо" is the same as Russian, Belarusian "ё" after consonants. With Bulgarian, where "ьо" is more common and is used for the same purpose, it is transliterated as yo/jo in geographical and personal names, e.g. "Жельо" - Željo (Zhelyo in English). I need to do the same for Bulgarian. In Russian, "ьо" is also confusing (it's used differently from Ukrainian or Bulgarian). It should be "ʹjo", not "ʹo" - компаньон (IPA^(key): /kəmpɐˈnʲjɵn/), каньон, шампиньон. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:32, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

We’re using the scholarly method for Ukrainian. I don’t agree with several of your premises and assumptions, but this is not the place to discuss it. —Michael Z. 2013-10-09 03:22 z

Consonant + є

Pretty sure совє́т (sovjét) should be transliterated as "sovét" and there's no [j] in pronunciation. I think this rare combination only happens in loanwords, mainly from Russian or when imitating Russian pronunciation using Ukrainian letters. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:11, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

I 100% disagree. The "j" just indicates palatalization and distinguishes it from the letter "е", just as with ю and я. The rarity of this situation is irrelevant, since its rules are consistent with those for the other letters. It does not imply a [j] pronunciation, since such a pronunciation would be spelled **сов'є́т (**sovʺjét). It's only in Russian that we make the letter "е" into a special case by not transliterating the palatalization, because of how common it is, and that, as you know, creates a lot of other problems. --WikiTiki89 21:40, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

OK. It was another brain fart of mine before I had some morning coffee. It's also consistent with the Belarusian transliteration of "е" - always "je". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:30, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Final ъ

@Benwing2: Hi. There are some rare cases where th efinal "ъ" is used in archaic spelling, e.g. Днѣпръ (Dnipr). Could it be converted to nothing like in Russian, please. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:30, 7 July 2020 (UTC)